India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

BlackOpsIndia

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Woah, what's this all about; never heard this before?
Agosta Submarine deal of DCNS and Pakistan Navy, a part of payment was promised as a commission for buying subs at inflated price, later things got out of hands and ISI blow up the bus carrying French engineers also a few Pakistanis to teach France a lesson.

France was leading equipment provider for Pakistan, they placed order more than us with France but after this bombing everything ended, all defense cooperation and deals and maintenance everything stopped. France do not entertain Pakistans any request.

Not the first time ISI proved fatal for Pakistan, time and again they shoot themselves in foot after targeting some country or other, be it Asian or Western.
 

RATHORE

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Considering India controls the SLOC in the Bay of Bengal, it is in Myanmar's interest to be more friendly with India than with China.
How are our relations with Myanmar now? It'd appear that they've gotten stronger lately; considering their tacit approval of cross-border strikes and anti terror cooperation. I would imagine our relative silence over the Rohingya issue is probably appreciated by them.

If we're getting along well with Myanmar, that only leaves Nepal as a somewhat troubled neighbor right? Hope we can turn things around with them as well.
 

RATHORE

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More than anything French want the huge Rafale contract and I admit by such posturing I only see the Rafale and additonal scorpenes as the big ticket purchases by India and why not.
This is good, they were the best options anyways. Btw, is the whole Scorpene leak thing still a problem, that could compromise our defense capability, espc if we buy more? Or is the matter dealt with?
 

randomradio

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How are our relations with Myanmar now? It'd appear that they've gotten stronger lately; considering their tacit approval of cross-border strikes and anti terror cooperation. I would imagine our relative silence over the Rohingya issue is probably appreciated by them.

If we're getting along well with Myanmar, that only leaves Nepal as a somewhat troubled neighbor right? Hope we can turn things around with them as well.
Myanmar is balancing their relations with both countries. But obviously China has been funnelling money into the country so has an advantage.
 

RATHORE

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Also, while we discuss Pakistan; I think it's about time we have some clarity on China. It may not seem like it from the way the two countries conduct business but we're basically enemies in a state of unconventional war.

It's time India starts treating China like that rather than kowtowing to it like we've done in the past for support against Pakistan/terrorist groups or for getting into organizations like UNSC and NSG.

> Aggressively cut the trade deficit until it's gone.
> Prop up other East Asian countries' cheap labor/manufacturing, as well as your own to displace China.
> For God's sake keep them out of any and every sensitive industry.
> Eventually revoke MFN when China's repeated provocations give you just cause.
> Consider extremely covert support to the Uyghurs, in a manner best determined by intelligence agencies.

> Supply any weapons platforms demanded by those East Asian countries that are standing up to China; this includes weapons like the Brahmos, as well as ballistic missile technology (China did the same for Pak).

> And in the case of Vietnam and Taiwan, proliferate nuclear technology (China did the same for Pak).
> Further develop the Quad, and raise a greater voice to support FoN and Japan in its tensions with China.
> And of course continue actively opposing BRI with competing investments by the US, Japan & India.

Some people will think these moves are too aggressive, and some will certainly caution restraint because we don't want to piss off the Chinese, especially since we don't fully match up to them yet. But understand that the Chinese do not respect or honor anything other than strength. And a big part of matching up to them eventually, begins in our own minds and the attitude we have towards them.
 
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Regarding the IAF strike, there is absolute public consensus that IAF 'released' payloads in a 'hurry' and 'ran' away. ISPR's narrative is unchallenged so far, even from the worst critics. There were major angry sentiments on the day of the strike that how did the IAF even penetrate Pakistani airspace, but they were dispelled after DG ISPR described the tactics of IAF (parallel technical violations over Bahawalpur-Okara & Lahore-Sialkot sectors), and said that as soon as PAF approached the Muzaffarabad sector, IAF 'ran' away.
Of course IAF violated LoC for just a couple kms before releasing the SOWs and turning back, unchallenged.

Regarding the PAF strikes, the public morale is sky-high. There is a mood of celebration because PAF retaliated with 'full force', penetrated across LoC unchallenged, hit multiple targets and brought down the MiG-21 which came inside our airspace. There's also public frenzy regarding a Su-30MKI which PAF supposedly brought down. Then there's the whole tea-party fiasco, and following that PM Khan's decision to release the Wing Commander Abhinandan for 'peace'...this was all extremely well received by the Pakistani public.
However there are still questions regarding the missing pilot(s), which are being answered by the Israeli conspiracy theory. Nobody is talking about a possibly crashed PAF jet. And the AMRAAM evidence is being countered by the 'Tiawan' conspiracy theory, probably an attempt to fool the Americans.

Then there's the international media's somewhat support of the Pakistani narrative (i.e. missed Balakot strike proofs, no proof of downed F-16, no criticism of PAF's retaliatory strike, appreciation of the release act, PM Khan's persistent posture for peace etc). India also didn't respond to the PAF's 'massive' strike on the 'non-military' targets. There's also still lack of acknowledgment of support of the militant groups, the public believes that they're freedom fighters and their actions are justified.
As you said, a better script couldn't have been written. Although it would've been even better if there was no acknowledgment of the second/third pilot in the first place.
Hmm. Can't say I didn't expect that.

India has left open the door for doubts, perhaps wittingly. But thankfully I don't think our government has the level of idiocy to claim absolute falsehoods to be true unlike Pakistan during its experience with Kargil which is the only thing that has kept me confident despite all evidence pointing to Pakistani victory in the skirmish.

The biggest blunder from our side so far was the foreign secretary's statement on the strike happening on the hilltop that was away from civilian population, which Pakistan quickly caught on too by displaying a hilltop that was away from civilian population. That ended with all focus on the strikes being centred in that one location with ridiculous theories of holes on the rooftops which only dispelled our credibility and introduced the world to subcontinental stupidity. Pakistan's gaffe about the pilots and the non-participation of F-16 (also easily caught) hasn't hurt it much thus far but a lost American plane would be much harder to hide unless America itself decides to help (there are a couple of reasons why it actually could).

It's a sticky situation for both countries although I count India ahead with an ancient MiG exchanged for the F-16 but with the strike otherwise being a failure.
 

Falcon

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Retard understanding of the context he is speaking in ..... clearly he means the way everyone in Pakistan were united in approach to the issue.

One can understand what he means if one wants to, and nothing wrong in the way he has articulated his views. But his mistake, speaking to a mass of stupids who fail to understand English.

So, he shot himself in foot.
 

Shajida Khan

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I read all of these papers... What surprises me is why the simplest and most obvious solution is never understood by all of these "Tawkin Mouths". The reason of India's terror problem is ISI and PA. And India is doing nothing against these. NOTHING AT ALL.
 

Bharath

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I read all of these papers... What surprises me is why the simplest and most obvious solution is never understood by all of these "Tawkin Mouths". The reason of India's terror problem is ISI and PA. And India is doing nothing against these. NOTHING AT ALL.
the ISI and the PA first need to be directly implicated in the terror problems
the way to do that is - show the "non state" actors to actually be "state actors".
we continuously call "Pakistan the epicenter of terrorism".
hold on - we are getting there. just hope congress doesnt come to power and undo this to add "hindu rss terror" angle.
 

Shajida Khan

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the ISI and the PA first need to be directly implicated in the terror problems
the way to do that is - show the "non state" actors to actually be "state actors".
we continuously call "Pakistan the epicenter of terrorism".
hold on - we are getting there. just hope congress doesnt come to power and undo this to add "hindu rss terror" angle.
I doubt diplomatic or "process" will bear any results here. If it had to, then it would have in past 70 years. This requires deterrence. And this deterrence is not strategic in nature. It is more of a deterrence of personal and organization nature -- dare I say clandestine?

Its about time that movers and shakers of enemy feel the fear that they will be personally harmed for pursuing a terror agenda on India. They cann't gain political power by simply carrying out terror attacks in India. This is the message India needs to deliver.

Pakistan is not a democracy and not a people driven state. The movers and shakers of Pakistan and its state apparatus are callous towards its own people. India needs to "deal" with these movers and shakers directly.

The basic principle which keeps people honest and just is that of Skin in the Game. These movers and shakers in Pakistan have no skin in the diplomatic game. They don't even have any skin in the military actions. This is the reason why after so many years of diplomacy and even military intervention this problem is continuing unabated.

We need to deter. But we need to deter the right people. We need to set a precedence and it should be loudly clear that an attack on India will incur not just political, diplomatic or military cost to Pakistan: It will cost the movers and shakers of ISI and PA life, limb and family.
 

_Anonymous_

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I read all of these papers... What surprises me is why the simplest and most obvious solution is never understood by all of these "Tawkin Mouths". The reason of India's terror problem is ISI and PA. And India is doing nothing against these. NOTHING AT ALL.
I'm still trying to come to terms with your visceral hatred of Islamic terrorism. I've noted your objections but am still amazed. I've interacted with your co religionists, having lived amongst them, but, unfortunately, have not seen anything resembling even a cursory condemnation from them. And these are highly educated and well placed individuals or businessesmen, across the sects of Islam, I'm referring to.

Perhaps, the overall shame Islam is subjected to, weighs heavily on their minds or perhaps all these sects have closed ranks. The most vociferous, among the opposition, are the Shias and their various sects, here in India . Never the Sunnis. Especially the Barelvis, who opposed divided India but stayed behind. The Deobandis, merely, upheld Taqqiya.

Just a thought, I thought, I'd spell it loud.
 
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A Person

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Gentlemen, I have my reasons for calling our democracy a sham. First thru the post is not the way a democracy should work. Democracy is about majority and not minority as we see in our democracy. We have had governments with less than 30% of total vote share in India.
Watch this:

This is why reforms like First Past The Post are passed, it allows people to be elected by smaller and smaller groups.

If that was the case US should have dismantled its entire diplomatic team.....
They did!
Rex Tillerson Turned the State Department Into a Ghost Ship – Rolling Stone

This is good, they were the best options anyways. Btw, is the whole Scorpene leak thing still a problem, that could compromise our defense capability, espc if we buy more? Or is the matter dealt with?
The stuff that was leaked was basically the in-depth technical document created to respond to RFIs before the first actual Scorpene was ever built, so it's information that any country can potentially obtain by simply expressing an interest in buying the submarine. It did include a lot of technical informations, but they're mostly theoretical and do not account for any customization.

If the Indian Navy estimated it was a serious problem, further Scorpene orders would have been rejected out of hand instead of being considered for Project 75i.
 
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i think russia is changing its color and what they want is to blackmail india for putting meat on the table.,it cant be coincidence that they are parroting the pakis line now , went ahead with military exercise with pak after uri attack.
so india needs to be beware of both china and russia
one an openly declared enemy and other not a friend