Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option - Their M-2000s are up for sale

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I think some (a lot?) folks might know this. During late 70s (around 79), france was building Mirage-4000 jet. Think it as Su-30 (or F-15) but french and having same lineage as M-2000. The prototype was extremely interesting and really great. It was never finished because... the two customer who were funding a lot of it (Iran then under Shah and Saudi Arabia) withdrew... I wonder if we could have stepped up. We bought a lot of Mirages in 1980 from France.

If we could have worked out something, we would be flying a jet with commonality (engine and weapons) with M-2000 by 1990 latest, having western radar and weapons and above all a very reliable and powerful engine. With upgrade path likely, we could have introduced AESA radar equipped heavy fighter at a later date...

France did not have a requirement for a heavy and long range plane like this but it might have bought something.

To top it all M-4000 looks absolutely beautiful dazzling.

View attachment 31801

The Mirage 4000 was developed using Dassault's own funds. Saudi Arabia and Iran did not finance it, but I have a little anecdote to share with you:
One day Marcel Dassault received a phone call in the middle of the night and it was the King of Saudi Arabia, who told him that he wanted to buy Mirage 4000s and that a demonstration had to be organised as a matter of urgency for his Minister of Defence. The demonstration was organised the second day in the morning and everything went well, so well in fact that Saudi Arabia agreed to buy the aircraft!
But the formalities had to be completed and the French Navy vetoed the purchase: the aircraft was too dangerous for the French navy in the Mediterranean.

Since then, we've had a bit of trouble selling fighter planes to Saudi Arabia.

 

[randomradio]

I've read the report too, but that query was to address @randomradio's assertion that M-2000's design isn't optimized for BVRs longer than MICA(3.1m length). That's why I wanted confirmation of @Picdelamirand-oil regarding the above.

With just a centerline fuel tank, the wing pylons can be used to carry bigger missiles.

On the centerline, it can be done with twin arms.

LCA-style twin arms can be possible for the outboard pylons too.

So the only options are to compromise range or performance or both. Bigger missiles cannot be carried with the most optimised payload efficiency.

Imagine this payload with the centerline composed of 2 Astras.

 

[randomradio]

I think some (a lot?) folks might know this. During late 70s (around 79), france was building Mirage-4000 jet. Think it as Su-30 (or F-15) but french and having same lineage as M-2000. The prototype was extremely interesting and really great. It was never finished because... the two customer who were funding a lot of it (Iran then under Shah and Saudi Arabia) withdrew... I wonder if we could have stepped up. We bought a lot of Mirages in 1980 from France.

If we could have worked out something, we would be flying a jet with commonality (engine and weapons) with M-2000 by 1990 latest, having western radar and weapons and above all a very reliable and powerful engine. With upgrade path likely, we could have introduced AESA radar equipped heavy fighter at a later date...

France did not have a requirement for a heavy and long range plane like this but it might have bought something.

To top it all M-4000 looks absolutely beautiful dazzling.

View attachment 31801

We couldn't even afford to buy M2000s at the time. With Indira Gandhi's death, she took with her all the balls of the Gandhi family, leaving her useless son with nothing, his antics got him killed too.

The idea was India would militarize through the 70s with a somewhat strong rupee (7-8 INR per USD), find some excuse to invade Pakistan in the 80s and solve our main problem once and for all.

But with the death of the Gandhi parivar and the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union at the same time put this plan to rest. So that also killed the defense budget, which started falling drastically as a percentage of GDP and continues to this day. It used to be 6%, compared to today's 1.6%.

 

[randomradio]

One day Marcel Dassault received a phone call in the middle of the night

I can imagine how pissed off the king might have been 'cause he called first thing in the morning all excited.

A good example of self-sabotaging yourself due to ego. The F-14s must have terrified him and the F-15As may not have been enough.

Someone in the Indian govt must have sent a secret thank-you note to the MN.

 

[Bon Plan]

Uttam on M2000 with Meteor integration was on the wishlist of not just fanboys but the IAF too. But I guess it died after they decided Meteor integration on M2000 was unrealistic. LCA Mk1A seems to have killed this plan.

Metor on M2000 was not "mechanically" easy :
Too heavy to be put on the external part of the wings, too long to have 2 pairs under the belly : need a new pylon, new air tests : it costs a lot.
And the RDY Radar may be short on range to fully use Meteor ?

 

[Bon Plan]

The Mirage 4000 was developed using Dassault's own funds. Saudi Arabia and Iran did not finance it, but I have a little anecdote to share with you:
One day Marcel Dassault received a phone call in the middle of the night and it was the King of Saudi Arabia, who told him that he wanted to buy Mirage 4000s and that a demonstration had to be organised as a matter of urgency for his Minister of Defence. The demonstration was organised the second day in the morning and everything went well, so well in fact that Saudi Arabia agreed to buy the aircraft!
But the formalities had to be completed and the French Navy vetoed the purchase: the aircraft was too dangerous for the French navy in the Mediterranean.

Since then, we've had a bit of trouble selling fighter planes to Saudi Arabia.

Not the first time I heard this history (without the anecdote about the night call).
What the hell the french navy feared AS air force ?

 

[Bon Plan]

Can we fit Astra on M-2000 as it is 3.84m vs 3.1 of MICA?

What about the weight? And even so you have to make costly air tests.

I think some (a lot?) folks might know this. During late 70s (around 79), france was building Mirage-4000 jet. Think it as Su-30 (or F-15) but french and having same lineage as M-2000. The prototype was extremely interesting and really great. It was never finished because... the two customer who were funding a lot of it (Iran then under Shah and Saudi Arabia) withdrew... I wonder if we could have stepped up. We bought a lot of Mirages in 1980 from France.

If we could have worked out something, we would be flying a jet with commonality (engine and weapons) with M-2000 by 1990 latest, having western radar and weapons and above all a very reliable and powerful engine. With upgrade path likely, we could have introduced AESA radar equipped heavy fighter at a later date...

France did not have a requirement for a heavy and long range plane like this but it might have bought something.

To top it all M-4000 looks absolutely beautiful dazzling.

View attachment 31801

M4000 and M2000 are the french answer to F15 & F16.
But without the same budget, it was impossible for France to pay the bill for the two.
M4000 was even better than F15.

 

[Ashwin]

The Mirage 4000 was developed using Dassault's own funds. Saudi Arabia and Iran did not finance it, but I have a little anecdote to share with you:
One day Marcel Dassault received a phone call in the middle of the night and it was the King of Saudi Arabia, who told him that he wanted to buy Mirage 4000s and that a demonstration had to be organised as a matter of urgency for his Minister of Defence. The demonstration was organised the second day in the morning and everything went well, so well in fact that Saudi Arabia agreed to buy the aircraft!
But the formalities had to be completed and the French Navy vetoed the purchase: the aircraft was too dangerous for the French navy in the Mediterranean.

Since then, we've had a bit of trouble selling fighter planes to Saudi Arabia.

Reminded me of this movie

 

[randomradio]

Metor on M2000 was not "mechanically" easy :
Too heavy to be put on the external part of the wings, too long to have 2 pairs under the belly : need a new pylon, new air tests : it costs a lot.
And the RDY Radar may be short on range to fully use Meteor ?

Meteor on M2000 would be useful when paired with the Rafale. LCA and MKI in case of India, although with Astra.

But yeah, it's not really worth the cost. At best, centerline with twin arms, but comes with a performance deficiency when the enemy now has more advanced jets.

 

[randomradio]

Reminded me of this movie

Never seen it. Okay, so, to shoot down the stolen M2000, they need the help of the only guy who has shot down a M2000, even though it was a friendly?

 

[Saaho]

We couldn't even afford to buy M2000s at the time. With Indira Gandhi's death, she took with her all the balls of the Gandhi family, leaving her useless son with nothing, his antics got him killed too.

The idea was India would militarize through the 70s with a somewhat strong rupee (7-8 INR per USD), find some excuse to invade Pakistan in the 80s and solve our main problem once and for all.

But with the death of the Gandhi parivar and the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union at the same time put this plan to rest. So that also killed the defense budget, which started falling drastically as a percentage of GDP and continues to this day. It used to be 6%, compared to today's 1.6%.

I highly doubt money was the issue. After all India bought 40 M-2000s in 1982 with money to spare for 44 Mig-29s too. The initial plan for IAF was to buy 150 M-2000s with production in India (btw, does this remind you of something? ). IAF at that time wanted a fighter to counter Pakistan F-16s being purchased from USA. Only M-2000s were good enough and were available for export.

The issue was that of diplomacy and politics. India was close to Soviet union and Indian diplomats from MEA put pressure on MoD to buy from Soviet Union. Mig-29 purchase was over the protest from IAF. IAF REALLY wanted M-2000s. To the point AS LATE AS 2004, they wanted to buy more M-2000s and STILL to this day they salivate for more M-2000s EVEN if they can buy it second hand.

M-2000 is the plane that India sends on the mission when it needs things to be REALLY done.

M-4000 was VERY MUCH possible even back in IG's time. At worst India had to cancel Mig-29s, which later proved to be of dubious utility.

That being said, What I am hearing from @Bon Pan & @Picdelamirand-oil is that perhaps M4000 was NEVER meant to be completed. Is that right?

​

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That being said, What I am hearing from @Bon Pan & @Picdelamirand-oil is that perhaps M4000 was NEVER meant to be completed. Is that right?

In fact, the programme sheet for the French Air Force corresponded to the Mirage 4000 and Dassault developed the Mirage 2000 prototype from its own funds at the same time as the Mirage 4000 prototype because it thought that the Mirage 4000 would be too expensive for export. The weapon system was the same, but there was more space in the Mirage 4000, which meant that more powerful versions of the equipment could be fitted. But France couldn't choose the two, and when the programme was launched it was French President Valéry Giscart Destin who chose the Mirage 2000, but the air force would have preferred the Mirage 4000.

 

[Saaho]

In fact, the programme sheet for the French Air Force corresponded to the Mirage 4000 and Dassault developed the Mirage 2000 prototype from its own funds at the same time as the Mirage 4000 prototype because it thought that the Mirage 4000 would be too expensive for export. The weapon system was the same, but there was more space in the Mirage 4000, which meant that more powerful versions of the equipment could be fitted. But France couldn't choose the two, and when the programme was launched it was French President Valéry Giscart Destin who chose the Mirage 2000, but the air force would have preferred the Mirage 4000.

India paid 40-45 million dollars for each Su-30MKI and got a well ... a piss poor plane. A M4000 would have been an excellent choice. Even if it costed higher. In 80s, IIRC M2000 was 23 million dollars fly away.

For India it was much cheaper to afford a M4000 in 1980s than to afford a Su30 MKI in 1990s. INR to USD was 7 back then.

 

[randomradio]

I highly doubt money was the issue. After all India bought 40 M-2000s in 1982 with money to spare for 44 Mig-29s too. The initial plan for IAF was to buy 150 M-2000s with production in India (btw, does this remind you of something? ). IAF at that time wanted a fighter to counter Pakistan F-16s being purchased from USA. Only M-2000s were good enough and were available for export.

The issue was that of diplomacy and politics. India was close to Soviet union and Indian diplomats from MEA put pressure on MoD to buy from Soviet Union. Mig-29 purchase was over the protest from IAF. IAF REALLY wanted M-2000s. To the point AS LATE AS 2004, they wanted to buy more M-2000s and STILL to this day they salivate for more M-2000s EVEN if they can buy it second hand.

M-2000 is the plane that India sends on the mission when it needs things to be REALLY done.

M-4000 was VERY MUCH possible even back in IG's time. At worst India had to cancel Mig-29s, which later proved to be of dubious utility.

That being said, What I am hearing from @Bon Pan & @Picdelamirand-oil is that perhaps M4000 was NEVER meant to be completed. Is that right?

​

Due to relations with the SU, we had to buy their stuff first before buying Western. So, after buying Mig-21bis, Jaguar, Mig-23/27, Mig-29 and the early tranches of M2000, we didn't have money.

Especially so after the SU started collapsing. Our plan was to manufacture both the M2000 and Mig-29. The Mig-29 turned into MKI and M2000 turned into MRCA and then LCA Mk2.

 

[randomradio]

In fact, the programme sheet for the French Air Force corresponded to the Mirage 4000 and Dassault developed the Mirage 2000 prototype from its own funds at the same time as the Mirage 4000 prototype because it thought that the Mirage 4000 would be too expensive for export. The weapon system was the same, but there was more space in the Mirage 4000, which meant that more powerful versions of the equipment could be fitted. But France couldn't choose the two, and when the programme was launched it was French President Valéry Giscart Destin who chose the Mirage 2000, but the air force would have preferred the Mirage 4000.

M4000 would have sold in the ME.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

M4000 would have sold in the ME.

This would have been a problem for Israel

 

[randomradio]

This would have been a problem for Israel

Hmm, Cold War politics was quite brutal.

 

[Bon Plan]

perhaps M4000 was NEVER meant to be completed. Is that right?

The original idea of Marcel Dassault was :
French government paid for M4000 developpment, expecting a french order.
Dassault paid for M2000 developpment as an export product for Mirage 3 and F1 customers.

Valery Giscard D'Estaing, the then french president, decided the contrary because M4000 was expected to be too costly for the french air force.

Without a strong commitment for M4000 it halted the project. But from the beginning M4000 shared the same technologies than M2000 : same engine, same kind of FBW, same radar (except the diameter of the antenna).

About the radar, the RDI radar of the french M2000C was late, because it was studied to fit a bigger nose cone (the one of M4000 ? may be) so they had to produce the RDM (a kind of more potent Cyrano radar of Mirage F1) as a stop gap from the first ones.

So no, the M4000 was expected to be a fully complete weapon.

I see the @Pic answer after my post. Globally same answer more or less.

 

[screambowl]

But from the beginning M4000 shared the same technologies than M2000 : same engine, same kind of FBW, same radar (except the diameter of the antenna).

M4000 should have been a 'stealth' ground strike aircraft, only then it would have gained interest within the French forces too.

 

[Bon Plan]

M4000 should have been a 'stealth' ground strike aircraft, only then it would have gained interest within the French forces too.

At those time stealth was not so praised...
The french birds use low level flights for air to ground raids since decennials.