Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option - Their M-2000s are up for sale

[randomradio]

Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option
Taiwan will also retire its ageing Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft due to high maintenance costs and to make room in the budget for new F-16s. Of the sixty fighters France sold Taiwan in the 1990s, fifty-six remain operational. “We would like to resale the Mirage fighters to a third country,” said one source.

The 56 jets are all 2000-5 models, and are just 20 years old with relatively fewer flight hours completed. This is a very good source of 2nd hand jets for the IAF in case they are interested.

 

[Ashwin]

There was a tender out for a handful of used mirages by IAF. They were looking for twin seaters since most crashed.

 

[randomradio]

There was a tender out for a handful of used mirages by IAF. They were looking for twin seaters since most crashed.

France will deliver 2 twin seat jets from their existing stocks.

 

[Milspec]

France will deliver 2 twin seat jets from their existing stocks.

What kind of flight hours on the Taiwanese M2K's

 

[randomradio]

What kind of flight hours on the Taiwanese M2K's

No clue about flight hours but due to a limited budget and focus on mostly American weapons, the M-2000 has been given the step-motherly treatment in Taiwan. So limited operation time, limited upgrade budget etc. With a SLEP, the total service life is at least 11500 hours. The Taiwanese wanted to fly 15 hours a month. So they may have finished 3600 hours at most for the oldest squadron.

With enough upgrades, these jets should serve us for 40 years at the minimum. Even our older jets are set to give us 30 years.

The numbers will justify replacing French avionics with more advanced Indian avionics in the future, maybe even the engine. Like what we are doing with the Jaguar.

 

[RATHORE]

Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option
Taiwan will also retire its ageing Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft due to high maintenance costs and to make room in the budget for new F-16s. Of the sixty fighters France sold Taiwan in the 1990s, fifty-six remain operational. “We would like to resale the Mirage fighters to a third country,” said one source.

The 56 jets are all 2000-5 models, and are just 20 years old with relatively fewer flight hours completed. This is a very good source of 2nd hand jets for the IAF in case they are interested.

We would be fools to miss out on this opportunity.

 

[Shajida Khan]

We would be fools to miss out on this opportunity.

Especially if Pakistan beat us to these.

 

[RATHORE]

Especially if Pakistan beat us to these.

That's exactly what I was thinking of. This would be an even better deal for them than for us due to their situation. But between the two countries' comparative financial situations, and our ties with Taiwan, these are probably ours if we want them; I just hope we pounce.

 

[Shajida Khan]

That's exactly what I was thinking of. This would be an even better deal for them than for us due to their situation. But between the two countries' comparative financial situations, and our ties with Taiwan, these are probably ours if we want them; I just hope we pounce.

I hate to say but I think Pakistan might have a better chance at it.

Their elections are just over 3 months back.
Austerity drive is in full swing.
China can finance partially their expense.

In our case.
6-7 months to election and meanwhile a billion state elections. I mean come on! Who needs so much democracy!
Government burnt its fingers on Rafale.
Even after elections, its going to be a coalition government this time. Either Mahagathbandhan or BJP coalition with none of the parties having a clear mandate. Government will spend more time in firefighting the allied-demands than actually running the damn country.
Money will be needed for populist schemes. Like feeding Lasagna to entire population of Rajasthan... even if it is just once in 5 years.
Most of our bureaucracy don't know if Taiwan is a country / political state or a brand of two-in-one radio-cassette players from 1983.

 

[randomradio]

I hate to say but I think Pakistan might have a better chance at it.

Their elections are just over 3 months back.
Austerity drive is in full swing.
China can finance partially their expense.

In our case.
6-7 months to election and meanwhile a billion state elections. I mean come on! Who needs so much democracy!
Government burnt its fingers on Rafale.
Even after elections, its going to be a coalition government this time. Either Mahagathbandhan or BJP coalition with none of the parties having a clear mandate. Government will spend more time in firefighting the allied-demands than actually running the damn country.
Money will be needed for populist schemes. Like feeding Lasagna to entire population of Rajasthan... even if it is just once in 5 years.
Most of our bureaucracy don't know if Taiwan is a country / political state or a brand of two-in-one radio-cassette players from 1983.

Not a chance of happening. Other than the fact that Taiwan themselves will not sell to Pakistan, the French have to approve it.

 

[Bon Plan]

Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option
Taiwan will also retire its ageing Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft due to high maintenance costs and to make room in the budget for new F-16s. Of the sixty fighters France sold Taiwan in the 1990s, fifty-six remain operational. “We would like to resale the Mirage fighters to a third country,” said one source.

The 56 jets are all 2000-5 models, and are just 20 years old with relatively fewer flight hours completed. This is a very good source of 2nd hand jets for the IAF in case they are interested.

The possible sale of Taiwanese M2000-5 is on the table since more than 10 years.... and nothing.
The high maintenace costs was an early issue, because the Taiwanese technicians didn't use the right materials and procedures.

 

[Bon Plan]

The numbers will justify replacing French avionics with more advanced Indian avionics in the future, maybe even the engine. Like what we are doing with the Jaguar.

Replacing avionics : why not. An AESA ?
Replacing engine : more difficult than in the Jaguar case. Replacing by what kind of engine?

 

[Shajida Khan]

Replacing avionics : why not. An AESA ?
Replacing engine : more difficult than in the Jaguar case. Replacing by what kind of engine?

We will need our version of ROSE.

Who knows, may be this might be excellent platform to test out Uttam.
Or Elta-2052

 

[Ashutosh]

I hate to say but I think Pakistan might have a better chance at it.

Their elections are just over 3 months back.
Austerity drive is in full swing.
China can finance partially their expense.

In our case.
6-7 months to election and meanwhile a billion state elections. I mean come on! Who needs so much democracy!
Government burnt its fingers on Rafale.
Even after elections, its going to be a coalition government this time. Either Mahagathbandhan or BJP coalition with none of the parties having a clear mandate. Government will spend more time in firefighting the allied-demands than actually running the damn country.
Money will be needed for populist schemes. Like feeding Lasagna to entire population of Rajasthan... even if it is just once in 5 years.
Most of our bureaucracy don't know if Taiwan is a country / political state or a brand of two-in-one radio-cassette players from 1983.

Really Doubt. It is Taiwan here, and Big bro PRC won't let this conclude, they will happily sell more JF17

 

[Bon Plan]

I hate to say but I think Pakistan might have a better chance at it.

France has definitively chosen India against Pak. (Pak is supporting Taliban, muslim mad guy + The Agosta deal is not a nice souvenir)
France will never accept it. That means no support, no spare parts => a freezed fleet.
Better for Pak to take J10B, J31 , more JF17.

 

[A Person]

The high maintenace costs was an early issue, because the Taiwanese technicians didn't use the right materials and procedures.

The Taiwanese were originally maintaining their M2K like they did with the F-16, and that meant they routinely took apart things that aren't supposed to be taken apart on a Mirage. This resulted in greatly increased exposure to the elements, which in an island nation like Taiwan meant greatly accelerated corrosion. They complained about that and Dassault had to show them how to maintain them properly.

But while this solved the biggest issue, it did mean that they had to keep personnel trained in two different maintenance approaches and so it makes sense for them to rationalize their fleet to only one model. Since they have nearly double as many F-16 as they have Mirages, and since they can order more F-16 while the Mirage line is discontinued, it's logical for them to drop the Mirage.

It is a good opportunity for India. Greece might be interested as well, since they operate the Mirage already and don't have much money for procuring new aircraft.

I hate to say but I think Pakistan might have a better chance at it.

Their elections are just over 3 months back.
Austerity drive is in full swing.
China can finance partially their expense.

Honestly, I'm not convinced by that last point. I don't see China being that happy about giving money to Taiwan. I think they'd rather see Pakistan buy more JF-17.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I will go for these M2Ks from Taiwan for IAF as a short term low cost solution to raise sqn levels. The MMRCA-2 should be linked to upgrade of these fighters free of cost to the revised standard of Indian M2K.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Honestly, I'm not convinced by that last point. I don't see China being that happy about giving money to Taiwan. I think they'd rather see Pakistan buy more JF-17.

Well, they dont need to fund it directly. They can fund one of the Pakistani dams and later Pakistan can use the funds it secured from elsewhere and buy these fighters.

 

[randomradio]

The possible sale of Taiwanese M2000-5 is on the table since more than 10 years.... and nothing.
The high maintenace costs was an early issue, because the Taiwanese technicians didn't use the right materials and procedures.

They have been wavering, probably as a negotiation tool with the Americans for the F-35. Plus buying from Taiwan would have lead to complications with China. But now, we don't give a F, China can shove it.

Replacing avionics : why not. An AESA ?

AMCA avionics.

Replacing engine : more difficult than in the Jaguar case. Replacing by what kind of engine?

AMCA's engine suitably modified for the M-2000.

I am talking about upgrading the M-2000 again after 2030 because the current upgrade from France can only last for 15-20 years.

 

[randomradio]

The Taiwanese were originally maintaining their M2K like they did with the F-16, and that meant they routinely took apart things that aren't supposed to be taken apart on a Mirage. This resulted in greatly increased exposure to the elements, which in an island nation like Taiwan meant greatly accelerated corrosion. They complained about that and Dassault had to show them how to maintain them properly.

But while this solved the biggest issue, it did mean that they had to keep personnel trained in two different maintenance approaches and so it makes sense for them to rationalize their fleet to only one model. Since they have nearly double as many F-16 as they have Mirages, and since they can order more F-16 while the Mirage line is discontinued, it's logical for them to drop the Mirage.

It is a good opportunity for India. Greece might be interested as well, since they operate the Mirage already and don't have much money for procuring new aircraft.

They complain that the maintenance cost of the M-2000 is 1.5 times more than the F-16 and that the M-2000 is more fuel hungry.