Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk

Falcon

The Falcon
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Nov 30, 2017
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Well, in the event you ought to have a word with @Falcon . He was keen on IA possessing a squadron or 2 of Hawks as part of CAS to be undertaken as per the CSD. Wonder what are your thoughts on this.
Still stand by that. Shall come back on the topic at a latter date
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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With Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) having successfully developed Basic Trainer Aircraft (HTT-40) Prototypes and certification process underway, the DAC approved procurement of 106 Basic Trainer Aircraft from HAL to address the basic training requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF). Post Certification 70 Basic Trainer Aircraft will be initially procured from HAL and balance 36 after operationalisation of HTT-40 fleet in IAF.

 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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I never opposed HTT-40. I only said we shouldn't put off the PC-7 purchase while hoping for the HTT-40 to make up for it. Different story that the PC-7 got mired in corruption and died on its own. It was obvious the HTT-40 will eventually finish development and will see induction. Something that should have happened back in 2017-18, not 2021. The fact that it took 4 years to flight test the HTT-40 is laughable. The Chinese took 4 years to enter the LRIP testing stage after the first J-20 TD started flying and 3 years from first prototype to introduction. So priorities...

The very fact that we will have to wait until 2021 for the HTT-40 turned out to be correct.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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I never opposed HTT-40. I only said we shouldn't put off the PC-7 purchase while hoping for the HTT-40 to make up for it. Different story that the PC-7 got mired in corruption and died on its own. It was obvious the HTT-40 will eventually finish development and will see induction. Something that should have happened back in 2017-18, not 2021. The fact that it took 4 years to flight test the HTT-40 is laughable. The Chinese took 4 years to enter the LRIP testing stage after the first J-20 TD started flying and 3 years from first prototype to introduction. So priorities...

The very fact that we will have to wait until 2021 for the HTT-40 turned out to be correct.
IMG_20200812_132254.jpg
 

vstol Jockey

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Dec 1, 2017
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I never opposed HTT-40. I only said we shouldn't put off the PC-7 purchase while hoping for the HTT-40 to make up for it. Different story that the PC-7 got mired in corruption and died on its own. It was obvious the HTT-40 will eventually finish development and will see induction. Something that should have happened back in 2017-18, not 2021. The fact that it took 4 years to flight test the HTT-40 is laughable. The Chinese took 4 years to enter the LRIP testing stage after the first J-20 TD started flying and 3 years from first prototype to introduction. So priorities...

The very fact that we will have to wait until 2021 for the HTT-40 turned out to be correct.
I had written to Late Parrikar in 2015 the merits of having HTT-40. I had even posted part of my email on the other forum at that time. HAL told him that they can fly the aircraft within three years. Late Parrikar accepted it and gave them go ahead. We all know that Parrikar witnessed the first flight of HTT-40 as RM. HAL delivered the trainer on time and within the time period specified.
If you may recall, I had very clearly stated the PC-7 deal was a thanks giving deal to swiss for protecting the secrecy of the accounts of Italian waitress and her late hubby. HTT-40 was delayed just to allow for imports of PC-7. We all know the kind of additional limitations regarding weaponising them are part of the deal. A retd ACM who changed the ASQR to remove all obstacles for PC-7 while mined the road for HTT-40 got posted as Ambassador of India in a scandinavian country. Something BROWNEy about the whole deal.
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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I had written to Late Parrikar in 2015 the merits of having HTT-40. I had even posted part of my email on the other forum at that time. HAL told him that they can fly the aircraft within three years. Late Parrikar accepted it and gave them go ahead. We all know that Parrikar witnessed the first flight of HTT-40 as RM. HAL delivered the trainer on time and within the time period specified.
If you may recall, I had very clearly stated the PC-7 deal was a thanks giving deal to swiss for protecting the secrecy of the accounts of Italian waitress and her late hubby. HTT-40 was delayed just to allow for imports of PC-7. We all know the kind of additional limitations regarding weaponising them are part of the deal. A retd ACM who changed the ASQR to remove all obstacles for PC-7 while mined the road for HTT-40 got posted as Ambassador of India in a scandinavian country. Something BROWEy about the whole deal.
The PC-7 had its own controversy, but the IAF ended up with a 4-year delay waiting for the HTT-40 in the process.

It was decided back in 2008 or 2010 itself that HTT-40 will join the IAF. The problem was/is the IAF is still stuck with a very small fleet of trainers. Even though we are missing 10 squadrons of fighter jets, we still have inadequate trainers. We only need 180 trainers, but have only 75 even after 15 years.

Only last year HAL was trying to pressure MoD into signing the full contract for an IOC. Which person is foolish enough to do that? The HTT-40 is definitely late, but it's the same age old mantra, that we will eventually buy it even after it's ready well after the deadline. Been happening for decades.

Btw, this is well beyond HAL's deadline. This is what they expected.
The programme aims to achieve its operational clearance by 2018...

HAL projects it will build the first two HTT-40 trainers in 2018, eight in 2019, and reach its capacity of 20 a year from 2020.

Back in 2015, even with the delayed start in 2013, they expected to finish development in 2017-18 and start delivering serial production in 2019. Now you can expect it to happen in late 2021 or early 2022. That's basically an 8-9 year process for a basic trainer. The last PC-7 was delivered in mid-2018. That's a really long term delay.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Man, that's way too much brutal!!!🤣🤣🤣
Credit for that should go to randomradio. His logic being to extend his arguments to such lengths as to lose track of what he wants to say that at times he trips over the very points he claims to disprove thus upholding the genuineness of the opposition's claims.

In bombay we know such a person as dedh shana.
 

vstol Jockey

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Dec 1, 2017
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It was decided back in 2008 or 2010 itself that HTT-40 will join the IAF. The problem was/is the IAF is still stuck with a very small fleet of trainers. Even though we are missing 10 squadrons of fighter jets, we still have inadequate trainers. We only need 180 trainers, but have only 75 even after 15 years.
Buddy, I like many of your posts but I can't agree to these views. You very well know that IAF contested the price offered by HAL and how it was going to be higher than Pilatus in the longrun. IAF was completely wrong. They ensured that the requirement becomes critical thru delays and than force a willing govt to import Pilatus. ACM Browne ensured just that. The Pilatus deal included options which were cancelled by BJP govt. The import of Pilatus is totally due to IAF. I myself do not have a very high opinion of HAL but we must give them their due where they rightly deserve it.

Only last year HAL was trying to pressure MoD into signing the full contract for an IOC. Which person is foolish enough to do that? The HTT-40 is definitely late, but it's the same age old mantra, that we will eventually buy it even after it's ready well after the deadline. Been happening for decades.
IAF has bought and imported aicraft in even IOC condition, Folland GNAT and M2K are two prime examples. HAL was correct to ask for the clearance to produce the aicraft in IOC condition. Even F-35 entered production after IOC only. HAL asked for it to reduce the time to induct the aircraft. HTT-40 was cleared for IOC after completion of spin test last year itself. The orders should have been placed then itself to avoid delays. After the IOC, the FOC required completion of certain number of aircraft hours only as this was supposed to be a non weaponised platform but HAL built in it the capability for even weapon carriage and firing which was not demanded by IAF and Pilatus does not have.

Back in 2015, even with the delayed start in 2013, they expected to finish development in 2017-18 and start delivering serial production in 2019. Now you can expect it to happen in late 2021 or early 2022. That's basically an 8-9 year process for a basic trainer. The last PC-7 was delivered in mid-2018. That's a really long term delay.
Your timelines are out. The go ahead for project was given by Late Parrikar in end 2015 and first prototype flew in 2016. Bulk orders allow for faster production and reduced costs. HAL has never ever got orders in bulk like imported stuff in its history. Even Marut aircraft suffered the same fate.
 

GuardianRED

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Dec 2, 2017
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Buddy, I like many of your posts but I can't agree to these views. You very well know that IAF contested the price offered by HAL and how it was going to be higher than Pilatus in the longrun. IAF was completely wrong. They ensured that the requirement becomes critical thru delays and than force a willing govt to import Pilatus. ACM Browne ensured just that. The Pilatus deal included options which were cancelled by BJP govt. The import of Pilatus is totally due to IAF. I myself do not have a very high opinion of HAL but we must give them their due where they rightly deserve it.


IAF has bought and imported aicraft in even IOC condition, Folland GNAT and M2K are two prime examples. HAL was correct to ask for the clearance to produce the aicraft in IOC condition. Even F-35 entered production after IOC only. HAL asked for it to reduce the time to induct the aircraft. HTT-40 was cleared for IOC after completion of spin test last year itself. The orders should have been placed then itself to avoid delays. After the IOC, the FOC required completion of certain number of aircraft hours only as this was supposed to be a non weaponised platform but HAL built in it the capability for even weapon carriage and firing which was not demanded by IAF and Pilatus does not have.


Your timelines are out. The go ahead for project was given by Late Parrikar in end 2015 and first prototype flew in 2016. Bulk orders allow for faster production and reduced costs. HAL has never ever got orders in bulk like imported stuff in its history. Even Marut aircraft suffered the same fate.
Still what @randomradio about the current timeline is correct no? ie FOC by 2020 - with series production of first units 2021 -2022
 
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