Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk

vingensys

Active member
May 9, 2019
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Cherpalcheri
Cant blame the forces either. No one prefers losing lives of our soldiers just cz we forced them to go indigenous. Everyone knows lives lost due to shitty INSAS.
Let indigenous products win contract after competing with their foreign counterparts.
Instead of removing competition altogether , we need to focus on facing and winning that competition
Ah, there... We are getting into that vicious cycle of chicken and egg problem.

How are we to perfect a product before mass producing and using it, the feedback of which leads to iterative development and finally catch up with state of the art?

But we will only use those uber cool gadgets, perfect in all respects, best of the best. Truly best is the enemy of good enough. I am preaching to the choir here, and apologies for the OT
 

Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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Earlier Unwanted, IAF Chief Makes Historic Personal Push For HAL Aircraft

By Shiv Aroor
Nov 15 2019, 4:40 pm
1573902342564.png


In the annals of difficult indigenous aerospace projects, HAL’s HTT-40 basic propeller trainer aircraft has had a particularly rough birthing. A full three years before a prototype of the aircraft got off the ground, its intended customer, the Indian Air Force, was busy petitioning the Ministry of Defence to shut down the project. The unconcealed hostility broke cover at the Aero India show in 2013 when the IAF let loose in public at HAL’s self-funded trainer aircraft program, even going so far ignoring the unveiling of an HTT-40 mock-up. When then IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne thundered irritably that his pilots didn’t ‘want or need’ the HTT-40, it was widely believed that the trainer aircraft was dead on the ground. Browne had his reasons at the time, given the desperate situation concerning India’s basic trainer fleet. We’ll get into those shortly.

But things couldn’t have changed more dramatically in the seven years since that very public trading of charges. On Thursday, when the Indian Air Force’s new chief took an HTT-40 prototype into the air for an hour, it was historic in a very real sense. Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Bhadauria had just become the first IAF chief to fly in an HAL prototype. And in doing so, he had also put to rest all doubts about the air force’s interest in the aircraft.

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Then IAF Chief Browne with a Pilatus PC-7 Mk.II in 2013 & current IAF chief Bhadauria after his HTT-40 flight.

HAL expects that the IAF chief’s flight in its HTT-40 prototype clears the decks for paperwork for the supply of up to 106 aircraft to the Indian Air Force. The HTT-40 first flew in 2016, three years after the IAF wanted it shelved.

To be sure, the IAF’s belated affection for the HTT-40 isn’t charity. Although delayed, the aircraft has recently turned many tough test-flight corners, rapidly gaining the IAF’s confidence for the crucial basic training role it will occupy. In September-October this year, the same HTT-40 prototype that Bhadauria flew, completed crucial spin tests. An HAL statement says Bhadauria personally assessed the spin and stall recovery characteristics of the aircraft during his hour-long sortie over Bengaluru yesterday.

‘[The IAF chief] expressed his satisfaction with the aircraft performance and appreciated the design, project and flight test teams for having achieved the commendable progress,’ HAL said in a statement, quoting the IAF chief as having said, ‘The project now needs to be speeded up for certification and HAL must target setting of modern manufacturing facilities with high production rate from the beginning.’

HAL Director of Engineering & R&D Arup Chatterjee said, ‘The Air Chief’s support enables the indigenous capabilities of the defence organisations like HAL to rise to the occasion and meet the desired metrics in quality, cost and time lines. Details for the production facilities required for producing HTT-40 in desired numbers have concurrently been worked out and HAL’s production will match the requirements of the IAF.”

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HAL-built Dornier Do-228, HTT-40 & Hawk-i over Chennai’s coast.

The avowed bonhomie is rare. And it comes after a particularly troublesome year in which the Rafale political scandal pitted HAL squarely against its mothership and principal customer — the government and Indian Air Force — with the opposition Congress Party even alleging that HAL had been cheated out of manufacturing and offsets opportunities in the 2016 Rafale deal. HAL had found itself in an awkward position, embarrassed at converted into a political football, but also seeing the conflict as an opportunity to push its agenda.

Apart from the HTT-40 proving itself technologically, the IAF’s interest was also catalysed by an important compulsion. A corruption investigation into Swiss firm Pilatus Aircraft killed the IAF’s option to purchase more PC-7 Mk.II basic trainers — the current IAF basic training mainstay — beyond the 75 already supplied. It must be said that the IAF was forced to import the Swiss basic trainers owing to the dangerous spiral in safety issues of the erstwhile HPT-32 basic trainer that finally led to the fleet’s grounding. With a back-up program nowhere on the horizon (the HTT-40 at the time was only on paper), the IAF has to globally tender for basic trainers, finally choosing the Pilatus aircraft. The IAF’s misgivings with the HTT-40 proposal may also have had to do with the parallel HJT-36 intermediate (Stage 2) trainer program entering a development stall and finally failing to deliver.

To be sure though, the IAF was warming to the HTT-40 long before the corruption investigation into the Pilatus deal began and saw the firm banned for a year recently.

‘The HTT-40 has completed all major test points and meets the Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR) issued by Air Headquarters for the BTA program. HTT-40 has successfully completed stalls, engine relights, inverted flying, acrobatic flying and systems testing. The Basic Operational clearance and user evaluation trials readiness is expected soon. The design team at HAL is motivated with the Air Chief’s sortie,’ HAL said in its statement.

HAL has conducted a series of demo flights for foreign customers in the last two years, and will be focusing on the foreign market in parallel.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...-historic-personal-push-for-hal-aircraft.html
 
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Gautam

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Bhadauria backs indigenisation, is first IAF chief to fly an HAL prototype

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 15th Nov 19

Friday.
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Bhadauria straps up for a "six spin" test on the HTT-40

Signalling a new, positive attitude in the Indian Air Force (IAF) towards indigenous aircraft, its recently appointed chief, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, test-flew the prototype Hindustan Turbo Trainer – 40 (HTT-40) at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bengaluru on Thursday.

Bhadauria became the first serving IAF chief to fly an HAL-developed aircraft at the prototype stage. Bhadauria, himself an accomplished test pilot who has test-flown the Tejas fighter, was taken through the gruelling “six-spin routine” in which the HTT-40 prototype was allowed to spin six times before the pilot recovered it into level flight.

For a prototype trainer aircraft, the “six-spin” test is considered the most conclusive landmark that signals the aircraft is ready to go into operational service.

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“The air chief expressed his satisfaction with the aircraft performance and appreciated the design, project and flight test teams for having achieved commendable progress”, stated HAL after the flight.

The HTT-40, which will be used for training rookie pilots of the IAF and navy, has now completed all major test points and met the performance parameters spelt out in the IAF’s Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR). During testing the HTT-40 has completed stalls, engine re-lights, inverted flying, acrobatic flying and systems testing.

“The project now needs to be speeded up for certification and HAL must target setting of modern manufacturing facilities with high production rate from the beginning,” stated Bhadauria.

HAL is now looking forward to receiving a Request for Proposals (RFP) from the IAF for manufacturing the HTT-40. An estimated 106 basic trainers are needed to supplement the IAF’s fleet of 75 Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainers that were imported from Switzerland.

For years, the IAF has tried to shut down the HTT-40 programme, demanding the import of more Pilatus trainers instead. But through this period successive HAL chiefs have backed the HTT-40, committing Rs 350 crore of internal HAL funds to the project.

Over the last five years, a team of young, talented HAL designers have worked without IAF assistance or funding, backed to the hilt by former defence ministers, AK Antony and Manohar Parrikar.

For the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainer, the successful flight testing of the HTT-40 most likely spells the end of further imports. The HTT-40 falls under the category of “Indian designed, developed and manufactured” (IDDM) equipment, and the MoD cannot import more Pilatus without a detailed explanation of why the HTT-40 is being ignored.

Broadsword: Bhadauria backs indigenisation, is first IAF chief to fly an HAL prototype
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Dunno why you are so hung up on this subject. HAL was always supposed to get an order for 70 aircraft. They are now fighting about who will get the order for the remaining 38.

According to me, Pilatus will deliver faster than HAL will. It's that simple.

And with regards to the article, the arguments are pretty dumb. Like this statement: Today, the HTT-40 is not just flying, but outperforming the Pilatus, as well as the IAF’s performance criteria, called the Preliminary Air Staff Requirements (PSQRs).

It was always expected to outperform most existing trainers, not just the PC-7. It's like comparing AMCA with Rafale. But the question here isn't about capability, but time. We can have the 38 PC-7 now when it's actually needed, whereas the HTT-40 is still quite sometime away, and the delivery schedule is also slow, 2 in the first year, 8 in the second and 10 after that.

And that argument for an RFP is the dumbest I've ever heard. The IAF has already been twice bitten by ordering something before it was even developed, the LCA. So the IAF's demand is basic certification before an RFP is released. So this is HAL's call to make, not the IAF's.

It's really simple. If PC-7 is chosen for the 38, then it's an advantage for the IAF and private aerospace. If HTT-40 is chosen, it's an advantage for the HAL alone. It's because the IAF lacks trainers, and can't wait for HAL to take their own sweet time to deliver. The 38 will take 5-6 years to deliver after certification, followed by another 7 years to deliver the remaining 70. It's ridiculous to think IAF has to wait well past 2030 to get all their basic trainers. Otoh, Pilatus can deliver their share of 38 in 3 years, while HAL can simultaneously fulfill their order of 70 in parallel, by 2027-28 or so. This way, we will have the basic training in place to train pilots of all the MRFA, LCA, C-295 etc that will start coming in after 2025. People don't realise how important trainers are since they are not sexy, but our modernisation will fail if we do not get these basic trainers in time. Ever year HTT-40's certification is delayed, the delivery time is also being pushed by a year. So it's 2032-33 now, so you can imagine well enough if we have the planes but not the pilots to fly them.

HTT-40 needs to complete flight testing first, followed by certification, then user tests, then contract negotiations, which on its own could take a year or more. So you can imagine the extent of delays possible before the first 2 aircraft are delivered. So expect full delivery of all 108 HTT-40 only around 2035. Is that ridiculous or what?

But now that PC-7 is mired in corruption, it needs to go, unless the charges are proven false. If the Pilatus was clean, then it's a no-brainer that PC-7 should be supported for the 38. This is simply HAL being selfish and greedy, nothing more. It's not like the IAF has said no to HTT-40 for the 70 aircraft order. This was decided back in 2008-09 or so.

Oh, btw, Pilatus is also expected to create an aerospace ecosystem in India with private players, not just for PC-7, but also for other aircraft from the Pilatus family. So you can understand why HAL is not so gung ho about getting competition and are attempting to stifle it as early as possible.

Pilatus to set up aircraft manufacturing unit in India

GKN Aerospace’s JV in India to manufacture wiring systems for Pilatus PC-24
You exceed specs when you are 10 or 20% better. This is just marginal improvement over specs, which only goes to show that the IAF's specs were realistic enough to be achieved, unlike the previous criticism where people claimed the IAF had asked for impossible specs.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Dunno why you are so hung up on this subject. HAL was always supposed to get an order for 70 aircraft. They are now fighting about who will get the order for the remaining 38.

According to me, Pilatus will deliver faster than HAL will. It's that simple.

And with regards to the article, the arguments are pretty dumb. Like this statement: Today, the HTT-40 is not just flying, but outperforming the Pilatus, as well as the IAF’s performance criteria, called the Preliminary Air Staff Requirements (PSQRs).

It was always expected to outperform most existing trainers, not just the PC-7. It's like comparing AMCA with Rafale. But the question here isn't about capability, but time. We can have the 38 PC-7 now when it's actually needed, whereas the HTT-40 is still quite sometime away, and the delivery schedule is also slow, 2 in the first year, 8 in the second and 10 after that.

And that argument for an RFP is the dumbest I've ever heard. The IAF has already been twice bitten by ordering something before it was even developed, the LCA. So the IAF's demand is basic certification before an RFP is released. So this is HAL's call to make, not the IAF's.

It's really simple. If PC-7 is chosen for the 38, then it's an advantage for the IAF and private aerospace. If HTT-40 is chosen, it's an advantage for the HAL alone. It's because the IAF lacks trainers, and can't wait for HAL to take their own sweet time to deliver. The 38 will take 5-6 years to deliver after certification, followed by another 7 years to deliver the remaining 70. It's ridiculous to think IAF has to wait well past 2030 to get all their basic trainers. Otoh, Pilatus can deliver their share of 38 in 3 years, while HAL can simultaneously fulfill their order of 70 in parallel, by 2027-28 or so. This way, we will have the basic training in place to train pilots of all the MRFA, LCA, C-295 etc that will start coming in after 2025. People don't realise how important trainers are since they are not sexy, but our modernisation will fail if we do not get these basic trainers in time. Ever year HTT-40's certification is delayed, the delivery time is also being pushed by a year. So it's 2032-33 now, so you can imagine well enough if we have the planes but not the pilots to fly them.

HTT-40 needs to complete flight testing first, followed by certification, then user tests, then contract negotiations, which on its own could take a year or more. So you can imagine the extent of delays possible before the first 2 aircraft are delivered. So expect full delivery of all 108 HTT-40 only around 2035. Is that ridiculous or what?

But now that PC-7 is mired in corruption, it needs to go, unless the charges are proven false. If the Pilatus was clean, then it's a no-brainer that PC-7 should be supported for the 38. This is simply HAL being selfish and greedy, nothing more. It's not like the IAF has said no to HTT-40 for the 70 aircraft order. This was decided back in 2008-09 or so.

Oh, btw, Pilatus is also expected to create an aerospace ecosystem in India with private players, not just for PC-7, but also for other aircraft from the Pilatus family. So you can understand why HAL is not so gung ho about getting competition and are attempting to stifle it as early as possible.

Pilatus to set up aircraft manufacturing unit in India

GKN Aerospace’s JV in India to manufacture wiring systems for Pilatus PC-24


You exceed specs when you are 10 or 20% better. This is just marginal improvement over specs, which only goes to show that the IAF's specs were realistic enough to be achieved, unlike the previous criticism where people claimed the IAF had asked for impossible specs.
Points accepted. But it's the HAL trainer now. Be it 2-4 years. The decision's taken. Your concern is well noted.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,112
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India
Points accepted. But it's the HAL trainer now. Be it 2-4 years. The decision's taken. Your concern is well noted.
The decision to induct HTT-40 was taken a long time ago, even before the design was put on paper.

As for PC-7, corruption killed it, nothing else.
 

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,192
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Spin test in July may revive intermediate jet trainer plan

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Last Updated: Feb 09, 2020, 10.51 PM IST
1581302636175.png


NEW DELHI: The indigenous programme to develop an intermediate jet trainer (IJT) could get back on track with a crucial ‘spin recovery’ test in July, with developer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) confident that modifications carried out on the test aircraft would prove successful.

HAL chairman R Madhavan has told ET that a spin recovery parachute is being integrated onboard the test aircraft this month, following which it would be put through a series of tests to prove that it meets service requirements.

The air force is in dire need of an IJT as ‘Kiran Mk II’ fleet is being phased out, putting a strain on its pilot training programme. The IJT ‘Sitara’ project has been in the works since 1999 but had hit a roadblock in 2014 after it failed the safety tests.

After facing difficulties in the Spin Test —in which the plane is stalled midair and recovered as part of the training process — a foreign consultant was hired by HAL and structural changes have been carried out. “We are getting the recovery parachute this month and once we integrate it, we can restart the testing along with all the modifications that BAR (Bihrle Applied Research) has given. We will start the first spin tests by July and once that happens, we will be back in the game,” Madhavan said.



The indigenous aircraft has gone through a significant modification, including an increase in the length of the rear fuselage and a redesigned rudder placement. A timeline for final development would be available only after the spin tests are completed.

“We have seen the mathematical models and in this case we are quite confident that the modifications will work and we can meet the required tests,” the HAL chairman said. The spin recovery parachute being integrated is a fail safe mechanism.

HAL is also working on changes in the Russian origin engine of the IJT. “The modifications have been done and we expect the life to be increased from just about 100 hours right now,” Madhavan said.

If the IJT clears tests, the deliveries can be carried out at an accelerated pace, given HAL already has 16 serial production aircraft ready that can be quickly modified. The air force has a requirement of 83 IJTs and the number could cross a hundred if the needs of the Navy are also factored in.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ate-jet-trainer-plan/articleshow/74049942.cms
 
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Quicksilver

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HAL is also working on changes in the Russian origin engine of the IJT. “The modifications have been done and we expect the life to be increased from just about 100 hours right now,” Madhavan said.
100 hours of engine life for a trainer aircraft.

All of our pilots train on it.

How good is that engine life?