Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk

randomradio

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Buddy, I like many of your posts but I can't agree to these views. You very well know that IAF contested the price offered by HAL and how it was going to be higher than Pilatus in the longrun. IAF was completely wrong. They ensured that the requirement becomes critical thru delays and than force a willing govt to import Pilatus. ACM Browne ensured just that. The Pilatus deal included options which were cancelled by BJP govt. The import of Pilatus is totally due to IAF. I myself do not have a very high opinion of HAL but we must give them their due where they rightly deserve it.

While corruption was involved when Pilatus was chosen, the fact is the HTT-40 wouldn't have become available anyway. That's why the contract was split into HTT-40 and an import back in 2008-10 itself.

IAF has bought and imported aicraft in even IOC condition, Folland GNAT and M2K are two prime examples. HAL was correct to ask for the clearance to produce the aicraft in IOC condition. Even F-35 entered production after IOC only. HAL asked for it to reduce the time to induct the aircraft. HTT-40 was cleared for IOC after completion of spin test last year itself. The orders should have been placed then itself to avoid delays. After the IOC, the FOC required completion of certain number of aircraft hours only as this was supposed to be a non weaponised platform but HAL built in it the capability for even weapon carriage and firing which was not demanded by IAF and Pilatus does not have.

A fighter jet entering production in IOC is very different from a basic trainer entering IOC. IOC implies the full envelope is not open for a fighter jet. You are a pilot yourself, what training would you receive on a basic trainer without its full flight envelope. Of course, if the full envelope is open, then it's fine, but I doubt cadets will begin flying until FOC is complete. Until then only the instructors are going to fly it.

Overall, HTT-40 is a far superior platform compared to the PC-7, there's no doubt about that. But then it was designed as an upgrade over existing trainers anyway. No different from Rafale import and AMCA development.

Your timelines are out. The go ahead for project was given by Late Parrikar in end 2015 and first prototype flew in 2016. Bulk orders allow for faster production and reduced costs. HAL has never ever got orders in bulk like imported stuff in its history. Even Marut aircraft suffered the same fate.

Design stage started in 2013 using HAL's own funds and was completed in 2015. The go ahead was for the FSED stage which involved the construction of prototypes, which the govt had to approve anyway, or nothing would move foward without it. HAL's goal was to finish flight testing in 2 years, that is 2017. So IOC was scheduled in end 2017. That's why the article pointed towards first delivery in 2018 with serial production deliveries starting from 2019. PC-7's last delivery from the first contract was expected to finish in mid-2018, which it did, and the options would have continued after that. But HAL hijacked the deal by pushing their view with totally unrealistic deadlines. All DPSUs do this.

IAF knew that it was impossible for HAL to keep to those timelines, which is why they pushed for the continuation of the PC-7 line for the remaining options. And that was a correct decision. While HTT-40 was being developed, the IAF would have taken delivery of the remaining PC-7s and training would have continued as usual. The only reason the options died back in 2018 is because of corruption, not because IAF had hopes that HAL was magically gonna deliver the trainers overnight.

Everything I've pointed out over the last 2-3 years have all come true. Now the HTT-40 will need another year to achieve FOC, after which numbers need to come in for basic training to start. So that's basically 2022+. My entire argument on the forum was that HAL sucks and will happily delay the trainer by many years, and it turned out to be correct.

Think about it, right now, the IAF is imparting basic training with less than half of their actual requirement. How does that work out for them?

And this is not even counting the time it will take to create the full length course material for training once the instructors have familiarised themselves with the aircraft. Incredibly, IAF is still of the belief that it will take at least 2+ years for HAL to deliver the first 20 trainers in order to begin basic training of rookies. So push it to 2023. One person I spoke to (ex-test pilot) in fact said it will take at least 4 years from contract before training actually begins, but what does he know, most of the forum members here have decided that it's all done and dusted now with the DAC approval. The only thing working in the IAF's favour is they are actually competent enough to make up for HAL's inadequacies.
 
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vstol Jockey

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A fighter jet entering production in IOC is very different from a basic trainer entering IOC. IOC implies the full envelope is not open for a fighter jet. You are a pilot yourself, what training would you receive on a basic trainer without its full flight envelope. Of course, if the full envelope is open, then it's fine, but I doubt cadets will begin flying until FOC is complete. Until then only the instructors are going to fly it.
You probably did not read my post in totatlity. I had stated that after IOC there will be time to deliver the first production aircraft and that time will be sufficient to complete FOC. Orders could have been placed with IOC to have aircraft in FOC condition only. Now even the first sqn of LCA which was delivered in IOC config will be updated to FOC by IAF itself.
 
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Ashwin

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Im truly happy that HAL has received the DAC clearance BUT - knowing HAL runs on IST.

I will reserve my 2 mins Silence for "I Told you so'
Doesn't matter anymore, does it?

HAL got all the 106 numbers for the pending order. Even if it were to be late they have secured it. IOC is eminent and the only major change left is on the engine upgrade which is left to Honeywell.

So, "I Told you so' from the day manohar parrikar politically backed the project and first flight it was obvious they will get the minimum order for 70 (HTT-40 falls under the category of IDDM). Even without Pilatus ban. HAL showed the courage to go ahead even without IAF support.

I will reserve my 'I told you so' for HJT-36 rebirth and DAC clearance few years down the line.
 

GuardianRED

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Doesn't matter anymore, does it?

HAL got all the 106 numbers for the pending order. Even if it were to be late they secured have secured. IOC is eminent and the only major change left is on the engine upgrade which is left to Honeywell.

So, "I Told you so' from the day manohar parrikar politically backed the project and first flight it was obvious they will get the minimum order for 70 (HTT-40 falls under the category of IDDM). Even without Pilatus ban. HAL showed the courage to go ahead even without IAF support.

I will reserve my 'I told you so' for HJT-36 rebirth and DAC clearance few years down the line.
Im very sure EVERYONE here on this forum (and elsewhere) KNEW THAT - the 106 numbers to HAL was written in stone ! it was only a question of when this was going to be awarded ! - there is NO DISPUTE in that!!!!

The Argument here is the commitment to a schedule /timeline to set goals and to a Timeline for delivery - of which everyone here KNOWS that HAL hasn't even remotely have even stuck to one - HJT - 36 Rebirth you say??? After how long has it been since it was FOC was announced for Dec 2014? and now you say DAC clearance down the line - a few MORE years ????

Like quoted earlier "The only thing working in the IAF's favour is they are actually competent enough to make up for HAL's inadequacies. "

2021 isn't far for the HTT40 - i hope that HAL proves me wrong - till then - I will reserve my 2 mins Silence for `I Told you so'
 
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Ashwin

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Im very sure EVERYONE here on this forum (and elsewhere) KNEW THAT - the 106 numbers to HAL was written in stone ! it was only a question of when this was going to be awarded ! - there is NO DISPUTE in that!!!!

The Argument here is the commitment to a schedule /timeline to set goals and to a Timeline for delivery - of which everyone here KNOWS that HAL hasn't even remotely have even stuck to one - HJT - 36 Rebirth you say??? After how long has it been since it was FOC was announced for Dec 2014? and now you say DAC clearance down the line - a few MORE years ????

Like quoted earlier "The only thing working in the IAF's favour is they are actually competent enough to make up for HAL's inadequacies. "

2021 isn't far for the HTT40 - i hope that HAL proves me wrong - till then - I will reserve my 2 mins Silence for `I Told you so'
Again, timelines don't matter now and hurdles are less. Its the only one standing. There is no parallel to hjt-36 here. Problems with it were flagged by IAF long before certification. HTT-40 exceeded ASQR, Maybe because it was formulated for 'import item'? :rolleyes:

Screenshot_2020-08-13 HAL fights for indigenous HTT-40 trainer, over Swiss Pilatus.png
 

randomradio

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You probably did not read my post in totatlity. I had stated that after IOC there will be time to deliver the first production aircraft and that time will be sufficient to complete FOC. Orders could have been placed with IOC to have aircraft in FOC condition only. Now even the first sqn of LCA which was delivered in IOC config will be updated to FOC by IAF itself.

It's the production schedule that will cause the major delay.

In case we finish negotiations and sign a contract this year itself, then we get the first 2 by next year end. Then we get 4-10 the year after. Then we get all the aircraft necessary to begin training cadets in the third year. IAF needs 20 trainers to begin the training.

Even if HAL works superfast and delivers all 20+ needed by the end of the second year, it still means training begins after 2 years, that's 2022.

If the contract is signed next year, even with the superfast delivery it's going to be 2023. In case superfast delivery is not possible, then we are talking 2024. Add in the six months it takes to put the first batch of pilots through basic training, we are talking 2024 to 2025. On the new batch of Pilatus, it would have been 2019.

Then you can imagine what will happen in case of another missed deadline or a slow ramp up of production.

If we are lucky, the contract is gonna be signed this year. The delay in the aircraft's development has already crossed the threshold of emergency.
 
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Ankit Kumar

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Again, timelines don't matter now and hurdles are less. Its the only one standing. There is no parallel to hjt-36 here. Problems with it were flagged by IAF long before certification. HTT-40 exceeded ASQR, Maybe because it was formulated for 'import item'? :rolleyes:

View attachment 17148
It has much better safety systems too compared to the PC7MK2. Zero zero ejection seats , pressurized cockpit to name a few.
 

vstol Jockey

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It's the production schedule that will cause the major delay.

In case we finish negotiations and sign a contract this year itself, then we get the first 2 by next year end. Then we get 4-10 the year after. Then we get all the aircraft necessary to begin training cadets in the third year. IAF needs 20 trainers to begin the training.

Even if HAL works superfast and delivers all 20+ needed by the end of the second year, it still means training begins after 2 years, that's 2022.

If the contract is signed next year, even with the superfast delivery it's going to be 2023. In case superfast delivery is not possible, then we are talking 2024. Add in the six months it takes to put the first batch of pilots through basic training, we are talking 2024 to 2025. On the new batch of Pilatus, it would have been 2019.

Then you can imagine what will happen in case of another missed deadline or a slow ramp up of production.

If we are lucky, the contract is gonna be signed this year. The delay in the aircraft's development has already crossed the threshold of emergency.
Bhai please read what IAF did till last year. They refused to order HTT-40 and wanted to import another 36 Pilatus. Only after that they wanted to order HTT-40. This project has been delayed by IAF only. Do not blame HAL. In this case they are not at fault.
 
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Milspec

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I still Wonder why did IAF Dilute the ASQR for the trainers.
For the PSQR specified > Texan and KT1 qualified.
HTT 40 as of now Exceeds the PSQR.

While PC7 Did not meet the PSQR, and could just barely meet the Diluted ASQR.

So at whose behest was the ASQR diluted to get PC7 into the fray?

Why has there been no inquiry against NAK Browne who deliberately misguided the then RM?
 
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randomradio

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Bhai please read what IAF did till last year. They refused to order HTT-40 and wanted to import another 36 Pilatus. Only after that they wanted to order HTT-40. This project has been delayed by IAF only. Do not blame HAL. In this case they are not at fault.

IAF did not delay the aircraft. IAF has no means to delay an aircraft's development.

HAL wanted a contract for all 106 even before IOC was formally achieved. That's not how procurement works. It always starts off with a smaller number for IOC, you already know that. Or wait for FOC and then ask for all 106.

Last year IAF formally abandoned the PC-7. HAL simply tried to take advantage of that.
 
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randomradio

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I still Wonder why did IAF Dilute the ASQR for the trainers.
For the PSQR specified > Texan and KT1 qualified.
HTT 40 as of now Exceeds the PSQR.

While PC7 Did not meet the PSQR, and could just barely meet the Diluted ASQR.

So at whose behest was the ASQR diluted to get PC7 into the fray?

Why has there been no inquiry against NAK Browne who deliberately misguided the then RM?

The entire thing is under CBI scanner now. Everybody involved are being investigated, including IAF officers.
 
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Vicky

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Dec 1, 2017
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Im very sure EVERYONE here on this forum (and elsewhere) KNEW THAT - the 106 numbers to HAL was written in stone ! it was only a question of when this was going to be awarded ! - there is NO DISPUTE in that!!!!

The Argument here is the commitment to a schedule /timeline to set goals and to a Timeline for delivery - of which everyone here KNOWS that HAL hasn't even remotely have even stuck to one - HJT - 36 Rebirth you say??? After how long has it been since it was FOC was announced for Dec 2014? and now you say DAC clearance down the line - a few MORE years ????

Like quoted earlier "The only thing working in the IAF's favour is they are actually competent enough to make up for HAL's inadequacies. "

2021 isn't far for the HTT40 - i hope that HAL proves me wrong - till then - I will reserve my 2 mins Silence for `I Told you so'

Doesn't really matter if the govt and IAF places order with HAL, nothing can be received in 2021 nor timelines held. Htt40 has just got DAC clearance means it will definitely get these orders. Now there is RFI, RFP and contract negotiations and finally CCS. MoD and MoF has to play hardball btw them. So people expecting an timeline based on DAC are in for an rude shock. LCH got DAC I 2017, still waiting for an order. Mk1A got DAC in 18'.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Doesn't really matter if the govt and IAF places order with HAL, nothing can be received in 2021 nor timelines held. Htt40 has just got DAC clearance means it will definitely get these orders. Now there is RFI, RFP and contract negotiations and finally CCS. MoD and MoF has to play hardball btw them. So people expecting an timeline based on DAC are in for an rude shock. LCH got DAC I 2017, still waiting for an order. Mk1A got DAC in 18'.
💯
 
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GuardianRED

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Doesn't really matter if the govt and IAF places order with HAL, nothing can be received in 2021 nor timelines held. Htt40 has just got DAC clearance means it will definitely get these orders. Now there is RFI, RFP and contract negotiations and finally CCS. MoD and MoF has to play hardball btw them. So people expecting an timeline based on DAC are in for an rude shock. LCH got DAC I 2017, still waiting for an order. Mk1A got DAC in 18'.
Not Expecting ANY Timeline based on DAC!!!

The Timeline so far mentioned is ALL BASED on HAL statements!!! - we have 24 pages on this thread - please go through them and you have see that the latest been that FOC in 2021!!! - all one want is that HAL to keep to that schedule - is that too much to ask?
 

randomradio

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Not Expecting ANY Timeline based on DAC!!!

The Timeline so far mentioned is ALL BASED on HAL statements!!! - we have 24 pages on this thread - please go through them and you have see that the latest been that FOC in 2021!!! - all one want is that HAL to keep to that schedule - is that too much to ask?

The same thing will repeat with the IJT as well.

The Kiran is already past its expiry date since 2014. And even that 4-year extension is over.

Now the IAF will be held hostage by HAL, with HAL promising unrealistic dates for the completion of IJT and preventing the IAF from importing their requirement even after having given HAL 15 years to finish.

In order to support the program, the IAF had already placed an order for 85 trainers, even before IOC was achieved. 12 LSPs in 2006 and 73 SPs in 2010.

IOC is now 9 years and pending. Oh, wait, this is gonna be all IAF's fault too.

Anyway, if the Sitara's a no-show, then the IAF plans to skip out on intermediate training altogether instead. They plan to do basic training and then jump straight to the Hawk. But oh, wait, they don't have enough basic trainers as well.
 

Sathya

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Not enough advanced trainers too. After the last deal for 20 more fell I doubt any more HAWKs are gonna be purchased. YAK130 incoming i would say.

We don't have any development program for AJT?
We have successful ly developed BTA & LCA..
IJT in progress..
Why AJT is left out., pretty expensive we are not able place further orders right?