The Rafale and what you know about it.

Call it what you want, it's the same form factor.
The role is totally different, one was a targeting pod.

Of course it's inside the pod, it's standalone in terms of power and cooling. And it's 3.5 kW for the whole pod, not the array.
Obviously, thats what I said. A single cooling system cool 2 arrays, front and rear.


How many TRMs are you expecting such a small pod to carry?

Optimistically? Europeans even able to manufacture 50 watt GaN TRM, so for India lets assume 40.
3500/40 = 87.5

87.5/2 = approx 40 in single array

That's where you need power.
Lets see if they come up with Growler MKI with 3 different pods of HBJ,MBJ and LBJ.

That only serves to work against your argument. If the jammers goes from C band to Ku band, then it's carrying multiple arrays. You can make X band work from 6-10 GHz, but you need an array or 2 for beyond 10 GHz, up to 18. So that small space will have to carry multiple arrays. Even in the sides if necessary.

So the pod is not only carrying multiple arrays, but also on multiple sides, and that 3.5 kW is distributed to the entire pod, not just the arrays.
Obviously, but that doesnt change the argument of sheer power. As you mentioned ALQ-99 is previous replies, it was jamming from 2-3 mhz till ka band.

If operation requirement is of Electronic Warfare, there is no other choice but to go with 3 different jammers.
 
Industrie - Accélérer la sortie de l’IA des laboratoires pour l’opérationnaliser au service des forces : l’écosystème cortAIX de Thales
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Industry - Accelerating the emergence of AI from the laboratory and putting it to work for the armed forces: the Thales cortAIX ecosystem


With around a hundred products already in its catalogue incorporating artificial intelligence (AI), Thales now intends to speed up the process and industrialise embedded AI in critical defence systems. To meet this challenge, and also to make it easier to understand the currently fragmented internal resources, Thales recently launched the cortAIx ecosystem. This is both an informal organisation to enable better sharing and, in some respects, also a managerial organisation via entities concentrating expertise:
  • cortAIx lab: a strike force that can be mobilised across the board on certification, qualification, intellectual property, cybersecurity and other issues, located mainly on the Plateau de Saclay (close to the research part of the recently announced Ministerial Agency for Artificial Intelligence in Defence (AMIAD) of the French Ministry of Defence);
  • cortAIx sensors: to combine AI, systems engineering and materials science (on radars, sonars, radios, optronics, etc.), and provide the best possible response to the issues of energy efficiency, on-board capability and the integration of software and hardware into sensors right from the product development stage;
  • cortAIx factory: a technology factory (in Paris, Rennes, Singapore and Canada) for the acceleration and qualification of solutions in the various decision support use cases, whether in mission planning, UAV/robot piloting, Command & Control (up to C6ISTAR...), etc... ;

A number of partnerships are envisaged or already underway (with start-ups, research centres, manufacturers, etc.), including a very strong desire on the part of Naval Group to work with the cortAIx ecosystem, under arrangements yet to be finalised. All in all, AI is now leaving the research laboratories and getting ready to be used in operational conditions in a number of areas.

AI for maritime patrol radar operators from 2025

From early 2025, AI bricks will be integrated into the Searchmaster radars supplied by Thales and installed on board the French Navy's ATL-2 maritime patrol aircraft. This radar upgrade is being carried out under an 'Other Armament Operations' (AOA) contract, which is different from the contract to upgrade a fleet of 18 ATL-2s to Standard 2. The requirements of the customer (Direction Générale de l'Armement / Marine Nationale) included automatic and intuitive calibration of the radars according to the missions (a tedious process until then), faster detection of targets of interest in the mass of data sent back (to limit the cognitive load of the on-board radar operators, thanks to optimisation algorithms and deep learning) and the fact that these radars are learning (by taking into account the acceptances or refusals of the operators to the proposals made, via reinforcement learning).

The solution developed makes it possible to suggest, in real time, the tracks (air/land/sea) that should be followed, by pre-classifying them. A special symbology (colours/shapes) is used to pre-filter them according to their size, correlation with certain lists (of suspect vessels/ships of interest), possible infringements linked to the absence of self-declaration (AIS type, for example), etc. In 2023, the DGA, the French Navy and Thales conducted a campaign to test a demonstrator over large areas, achieving significant gains in both detection and classification.

These AI bricks will also be standard on the radars aboard the Albatros maritime surveillance aircraft (based on Dassault Aviation Falcon 2000s, replacing the Falcon 50 and Guardian), the first deliveries of which are scheduled for 2027. The naval versions of the HIL (Hélicoptères Interarmées Léger - Light Joint Helicopters) will also be able to work together with the Airmaster axis radars in the nose and flanks of these helicopters.

In 2026, the TALIOS (Targeting Long-Range Identification Optronic System) optronic reconnaissance and targeting pod fitted to the Rafale aircraft will also be 'AI inside'. Until now, the images gathered by scanning a given area using a joystick were analysed in flight by the crew via video feedback, or on the ground once the hard disks had been recovered after landing.

An on-board Thales Neuronal Processor should enable real-time analysis for the detection of a type of target, without going as far as the precise identification of potential targets detected: "it will be 'it's a tank', but we're not at 'it's this type of tank'". According to Thales, the gains achieved are a factor of 100, with the time taken to scan an area to be targeted dropping from 15 minutes at present to a few tens of seconds tomorrow, after an automatic scan enabling the given area to be scanned while maintaining high resolution (a few tens of cm per pixel). The targets will be pre-pointed to the pilot or crew (pilot/copilot), who will confirm the identification and decide for themselves what to do next. The algorithms have been trained using images and data collected both during industrial flights and Air Force and Space Force flights. The other solution is the use of synthetic data generated by Thales via AI, which is combined with data from other sources, while remaining "smart data rather than big data".

According to Thales, its 'sensor' expertise has enabled the integration of an analysis processor (a neural network) that is energy-efficient (a particularly limited resource on board), relatively light and compact, just behind the optronics section. Thales has taken the sovereignty aspect relatively far for this equipment, which is important for the missions carried out (because it enables targeting). The company takes sub-systems from abroad (particularly the United States) and strips them of their software layers, keeping only the hardware and rebuilding their own software layers on top: "An expensive choice, but necessary for certain sovereignty constraints".

This solution will be integrated into the Rafale's F4-3 standard, and will have to be compatible with the current IT infrastructures planned in the fighter squadrons, in particular to train the ground algorithms on the most recently acquired data and to guarantee harmonisation of the algorithms within the fleets. These are complex issues to tackle via clouds, but they should enable the most up-to-date algorithms to be loaded into aircraft for each mission, depending on the preparation phase. As is already the case today with a range of system configurations equipping the Rafale.

AI in your ears soon on board reconnaissance aircraft or on the radio

Other avenues of development are being explored, in particular using algorithms from the civilian sector, such as the denoising of radio conversations on board surveillance or reconnaissance aircraft (ALSR/VADOR type) carrying out long missions (of the order of 10 hours) or for the CONTACT/SYNAPSE range of radios (the export version). The aim is to remove parasitic noise, enabling greater concentration during long sequences interspersed with loss of links or disrupted links, and sound environments saturated with explosions, engine noise, etc.

In the short term, the AI solutions can run on on-board servers (as part of an approach co-developed with Air Force and Space Force users), and in the medium term the processors will be able to be implemented directly in Bluetooth radio headsets. The real added value of the solution will not necessarily be in the algorithm (derived from the civilian sector, to which performance layers have been added, for example to take account of explosions), but in its integration in a critical environment. This requires processors that consume little energy (the real limitation on radio sets), are light and robust.

So the AI needs to be assimilated to specific hardware, via special reinforced silicon wafers (3 mm by 3 mm). Demonstrators of very low-power neural networks have been developed using chips produced by GreenWaves Technologies (in which DGA and Thales are shareholders). And all in compliance with the demanding MIL and aeronautical standards.

Enough to meet the challenges ahead

So there is no shortage of projects for the 600 or so Thales experts (2/3 of whom are in France) working on artificial intelligence (AI) issues. Engineers and researchers, including (according to the company) neither data annotators nor the 100 or so in-house PhD students also working on these subjects. This strike force is responsible for filing an average of 40 patents a year in Europe. This compares with AMIAD, which is aiming to bring together 300 people over time, or other European AI pureplayer companies (in the news in recent weeks) with around 200 to 300 employees, all departments combined..

Beyond that, Thales is seeking to build on what it describes as the company's 'magic square':
  • Business knowledge based on experience of the concepts of operations and the environment in which the products developed are used;
  • The fact that AI is seen as an 'enabling' technology that is applied to products that are also mastered, and not for its own sake, and where AI and materials science are combined (enabling, for example, the consequences of the use of certain ceramics in sonars on the data collected and subsequently processed to be mastered);
  • The search for the most complete control of the entire chain (see the case of the TALIOS pod);
  • Cyber security 'by design', drawing on the Group's 5,800 cyber security experts (including the CESTI - centre d'évaluation de la sécurité des technologies de l'information - in Toulouse), and in particular its 'Friendly Hacking' capabilities.

These are just some of the assets that will enable Thales to become a leading player in embedded defence AI in Europe. For Thales, this type of AI is hybrid (symbolic/generative), on a trusted cloud (announced as qualifying by ANSSI at the end of the year), explainable (transparent) and stops before a decision is made (for ethical reasons). To achieve this ambition, there are still challenges to be met, particularly in the development cycles for solutions and in maintaining them at the highest level of the state of the art throughout their lifecycle. There will be no shortage of changes in methods (but also, on a more economic level, in business models), if we are to pass a new milestone after that of digitisation, and fully achieve that of the operationalisation of reliable AI in the service of the armed forces.
 
The role is totally different, one was a targeting pod.

You are referring to Siva.

Obviously, thats what I said. A single cooling system cool 2 arrays, front and rear.

Yeah, so that divides cooling capacity right away by 2.


Optimistically? Europeans even able to manufacture 50 watt GaN TRM, so for India lets assume 40.
3500/40 = 87.5

87.5/2 = approx 40 in single array

So how much power do you think they will deliver and compare that with what you initially stated.

Lets see if they come up with Growler MKI with 3 different pods of HBJ,MBJ and LBJ.

Already exists. SAP-14 does 1-5 GHz. SAP-518 managed 5-18, HBJ is replacing it 'cause of flight performance issues. The numbers probably mean the frequencies they operate in.
 
You are referring to Siva.
Yeah
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Yeah, so that divides cooling capacity right away by 2.

Thats what I have said since my first post.
So how much power do you think they will deliver and compare that with what you initially stated.
I have already done the calculation in previous reply.

Already exists. SAP-14 does 1-5 GHz. SAP-518 managed 5-18, HBJ is replacing it 'cause of flight performance issues. The numbers probably mean the frequencies they operate in.
SAP-14 is still not be as advanced as Aashraya ASPJ. And you need new LBJ and MBJ, if want to attain NBJ level capabilities.
 
Yes, I know what the XG entails. It's been somewhat known since the late 2000s that Rafale will get conformal arrays. We even assumed this will be part of F4 half a decade ago, a huge overestimation. But the MRFA will not see the XG at this rate.

My guess is, apart from being expensive, making it impossible for the export market, GaN was not pursued because the Russians are still behind, and there's no reason to get around to it this decade. Even if the new antenna is digital, it's still GaAs, and won't have the same fractional bandwidth as GaN. And we have to go by the logic that the Chinese are already using superior hardware with their bigger budget, a threat the French are not planning on facing anytime soon. Not to mention 6th gen.

Anyway, even if there are incremental upgrades to the Rafale, it still won't be the RBE2 XG. So, in order to keep up with other competitors, France may at best offer an RBE2 AESA with GaN, no different from what we are getting with Uttam Mk2 and Mk3 with LCA and MKI resply. Once that happens, the IAF is not gonna replace it with XG anytime soon. There will only be options for new FFBNW technologies to be added, or some upgrades during overhaul, but not a full system replacement for at least 25 years.
In fact, developments in France are designed to meet the most urgent needs. The Radar development roadmap is as follows:
  • Improve range in heavily jammed areas => multi-channel receiver
  • Detect stealth as well as non-stealth => connectivity => multistatism
  • Increase the detection range beyond the METEOR range => GaN
  • Extend the Radar's field of view => lateral antennas
  • Integrate detection, jamming and communications => multi-functional antennas all around the aircraft.
We can't put money into developing everything at once, so we put money into developing in the order that the operational people tell us to.
 
Thats what I have said since my first post.

I have already done the calculation in previous reply.

Yeah, so it's not gonna do this:
As we know, each cooling system in MKI UPG is of 3.5 kw. That means total of 7 kw. If we consider 50% efficiency, that means peak power for ASPJ be around 14 kw in MKI UPG.

7 kW from one pod, no chance. It's at best a 1-2 kW system for the MKI at a sub-1 kW system for LCA.

SAP-14 is still not be as advanced as Aashraya ASPJ. And you need new LBJ and MBJ, if want to attain NBJ level capabilities.

There's a new jammer being developed called Vihanti Standoff Jammer. This one will be big and power-hungry. But I guess it won't be equipped on a fighter. For now, SAP-14 is sufficient.
 
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In fact, developments in France are designed to meet the most urgent needs. The Radar development roadmap is as follows:
  • Improve range in heavily jammed areas => multi-channel receiver
  • Detect stealth as well as non-stealth => connectivity => multistatism
  • Increase the detection range beyond the METEOR range => GaN
  • Extend the Radar's field of view => lateral antennas
  • Integrate detection, jamming and communications => multi-functional antennas all around the aircraft.
We can't put money into developing everything at once, so we put money into developing in the order that the operational people tell us to.

It's unfortunate for India, but MRFA timeline will force us to postpone the last 3 by a decade. And, more importantly, MUMT will also be delayed.
 
Yeah, so it's not gonna do this:
As we know, each cooling system in MKI UPG is of 3.5 kw. That means total of 7 kw. If we consider 50% efficiency, that means peak power for ASPJ be around 14 kw in MKI UPG.

7 kW from one pod, no chance. It's at best a 1-2 kW system for the MKI at a sub-1 kW system for LCA.

Now you just replying for sake of replying. If its a 1-2 kw system, lets assume in worst cast, the efficiency is utter garbage, it still be around 20-25%.
That means 800-1400 watt(for 1-2 kw peak power) of thermal load, for that why you need a cooling system of 3.5 kw thermal load? For providing air conditioning to pilots?

This is my last reply to you, if you dont want to believe thats upto you, but facts doesnt change.
 
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With GaN AESA radar, MKI could use it for Electronic Attack(EA) as well. As I said earlier with GaN radar possibilities are numerous.
 
Now you just replying for sake of replying. If its a 1-2 kw system, lets assume in worst cast, the efficiency is utter garbage, it still be around 20-25%.
That means 800-1400 watt(for 1-2 kw peak power) of thermal load, for that why you need a cooling system of 3.5 kw thermal load? For providing air conditioning to pilots?

This is my last reply to you, if you dont want to believe thats upto you, but facts doesnt change.

Yes, that's more than what's necessary out of SPJ.

An SPJ outputs power far less than 100 W against a single target. So all that power is distributed towards multiple targets.

Unfortunately, you do not know how the physics works.

Standoff jammer requires more power because by the time the signal travels to the distance the SPJ operates at, its power also would have reduced to the same level as the SPJ.

3.5 kW is for the entire pod. At best only 1 kW is going into both arrays, the rest is necessary for the proper functioning of the pod.
 
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Now you just replying for sake of replying. If its a 1-2 kw system, lets assume in worst cast, the efficiency is utter garbage, it still be around 20-25%.
That means 800-1400 watt(for 1-2 kw peak power) of thermal load, for that why you need a cooling system of 3.5 kw thermal load? For providing air conditioning to pilots?

This is my last reply to you, if you dont want to believe thats upto you, but facts doesnt change.
Is this the DC or the AC power?
 
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I am a great supporter of Rafale and believe we should have over 200 of them. But GaN from GaAs is a big jump. It's a fact.
I am not talking that you are against Rafale,what I am saying is you are as good as unreasonable just like that guy.

GaN is a quantum jump over GaA as a material to be used as trans receiver module, agreed . But what about the design architect of trans receiver module, what about the software part? You think that Uttam with GaN will outperform RBE2 radar because later is using GaA?
 
I am not talking that you are against Rafale,what I am saying is you are as good as unreasonable just like that guy.

GaN is a quantum jump over GaA as a material to be used as trans receiver module, agreed . But what about the design architect of trans receiver module, what about the software part? You think that Uttam with GaN will outperform RBE2 radar because later is using GaA?
Yes.