The Rafale and what you know about it.

LRDE is working on GaN based multichannel and UBW TSA, I think since 2017. And that go inside MKI UPG.
They are also trying to make MMIC, and I expect it be ready by AMCA. This level of R&D is only happening in US and Israel. People get shell shocked, that how quickly we catched up in airbourne radars , but that is all thanks to Netra Mk1.

274952665_4923142291054564_6935992650036585384_n.jpg


View attachment 32766
Yeah, Rafale's SPECTRA still uses GaAs modules while our Tejas MK1A will have GaN based ECM/EW system. How the times have changed, lol.
 
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Yeah, Rafale's SPECTRA still uses GaAs modules while our Tejas MK1A will have GaN based ECM/EW system. How the times have changed, lol.
Not just about that

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As we know, each cooling system in MKI UPG is of 3.5 kw. That means total of 7 kw. If we consider 50% efficiency, that means peak power for ASPJ be around 14 kw in MKI UPG. And that is a GaN based jammer.


Good luck burning through this jammer.
 
You may laugh or what but we've caught up in avionics to the world leaders is not a fallacy. How many countries have GaN AESA radars and GaN EW pods operational? Just within two years from now MKI shall have both. A plane of MKI's size carrying ~2000 TRM GaN AESA radar has numerous possibilities. Let IAF test GaN AESA equipped MKI against GaAs AESA equipped Rafale F3/4 in the coming few years and then you'll know.
Where is our GaN radar for fighter? Its simply under R&D till today.
 
Yeah, Rafale's SPECTRA still uses GaAs modules while our Tejas MK1A will have GaN based ECM/EW system. How the times have changed, lol.
You always reminds me a jf17 fanboy in peedeef who always quote DSI during discussion to prove JF17 is superior. He even once tolds JF17 is superior to rafale because later doesn't have DSI.
 
Not just about that

View attachment 32767

As we know, each cooling system in MKI UPG is of 3.5 kw. That means total of 7 kw. If we consider 50% efficiency, that means peak power for ASPJ be around 14 kw in MKI UPG. And that is a GaN based jammer.


Good luck burning through this jammer.

I doubt the wing-tip jammers are that powerful. Plus it will have multiple arrays, so it's not all at once from one side.
 
I doubt the wing-tip jammers are that powerful. Plus it will have multiple arrays, so it's not all at once from one side.
Cooling system for 3.5 kw + 3.5 kw thermal load for jammer is developed by DRDO. That cooling system was displayed in last Aero India.

And obviously, it emit multiple beam to jam multiple aircrafts. But still the jammer peak power still is quite high.
 
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Not just about that

View attachment 32767

As we know, each cooling system in MKI UPG is of 3.5 kw. That means total of 7 kw. If we consider 50% efficiency, that means peak power for ASPJ be around 14 kw in MKI UPG. And that is a GaN based jammer.


Good luck burning through this jammer.
Yes, these GaN pods are going to be extremely difficult to burn through and thanks to advancements in tech, these pods may also be able to do destructive interference which shall even enable the much fabled Active Cancellation.

Also one more thing is that both these pods also have in-built ESM which shall further complement the new wide-band RWR-NG that'll go into MKI/MK1A. So, these pods would be able to jam multiple emitters in different frequencies(advantage of GaN's high bandwidth) by producing very accurate high directional narrow beams. Highly effective, me thinks. Also it would mean that HOJ mode of BVRs or SAMs won't be that effective against MKI.
 
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@Rajput Lion

This is what Godrej is actually building so that was indeed a joke but they could be considered for the coolant development. They have the infrastructure.


Thrusters​

Godrej Aerospace is the sole manufacturer of Liquid Engines for Space Launch Vehicles for the Indian Space Research Organization along with our consortium partner. Apart from the engines, we also supply complex thrusters for satellite applications and complex assemblies for Cryogenic & Semi Cryogenic Engines for Launch Vehicles.
 
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Cooling system for 3.5 kw + 3.5 kw thermal load for jammer is developed by DRDO. That cooling system was displayed in last Aero India.

And obviously, it emit multiple beam to jam multiple aircrafts. But still the jammer peak power still is quite high.

We are talking about a very small size, and a lot of antennas across the 5-18 GHz spectrum. So all that power is distributed across a lot of arrays, not just one. That wing-tip jammer is not as big as you think. It's a modernization of the Siva pod, it's not a very large diameter, probably just bigger than a large missile seeker, but with multiple arrays, so the actual load on each band is as small as a BVR missile seeker.

Anyway, the HBJ is not a standoff jammer, it's only an SPJ, so output power requirement is a few dozen watts, 'cause that's the amount of power received from the radar.
 
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We are talking about a very small size, and a lot of antennas across the 5-18 GHz spectrum. So all that power is distributed across a lot of arrays, not just one. That wing-tip jammer is not as big as you think. It's a modernization of the Siva pod, it's not a very large diameter, probably just bigger than a large missile seeker, but with multiple arrays, so the actual load on each band is as small as a BVR missile seeker.

Anyway, the HBJ is not a standoff jammer, it's only an SPJ, so output power requirement is a few dozen watts, 'cause that's the amount of power received from the radar.
As per USAF, even though EPAWSS is an SPJ, yet it can hide other Eagles/F-35 in a SEAD mission. @Arpit is correct that MKI's twin GaN ASPJ/HBJ pods do have 3.5KW cooling ability each while Tejas' smaller/lighter single GaN ASPJ pod will have 2KW cooling ability. Peak power is actially much higher than peak cooling ability. So MKI's pods both have more than 3.5KW peak power, is a given thing.

Thanks to combined power of these pods, MKI UPG. would be able to jam multiple emitters at a time and maybe even hide some of its peers(Tejas/Rafale et al) using the brute power mode. Once these pods go to production, EW capabilities of IAF will go up by several notches, IMO.
 
You always reminds me a jf17 fanboy in peedeef who always quote DSI during discussion to prove JF17 is superior. He even once tolds JF17 is superior to rafale because later doesn't have DSI.
I am a great supporter of Rafale and believe we should have over 200 of them. But GaN from GaAs is a big jump. It's a fact.
 
As per USAF, even though EPAWSS is an SPJ, yet it can hide other Eagles/F-35 in a SEAD mission. @Arpit is correct that MKI's twin GaN ASPJ/HBJ pods do have 3.5KW cooling ability each while Tejas' smaller/lighter single GaN ASPJ pod will have 2KW cooling ability. Peak power is actially much higher than peak cooling ability. So MKI's pods both have more than 3.5KW peak power, is a given thing.

Thanks to combined power of these pods, MKI UPG. would be able to jam multiple emitters at a time and maybe even hide some of its peers(Tejas/Rafale et al) using the brute power mode. Once these pods go to production, EW capabilities of IAF will go up by several notches, IMO.

Yeah, but that's spread across multiple arrays. There's one set in the front, one set in the back and at least one more on the side, if any. So all that cooling is spread across 4 arrays.

Here's an example:
image-515.png


This one has 4 arrays.

And the array size is small, so there's not a lot of TRMs on each one. So there's not a lot of power coming out of each array.
 
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Yeah, but that's spread across multiple arrays. There's one set in the front, one set in the back and at least one more on the side, if any. So all that cooling is spread across 4 arrays.

Here's an example:
image-515.png


This one has 4 arrays.

And the array size is small, so there's not a lot of TRMs on each one. So there's not a lot of power coming out of each array.
Because of digital narrow beamforming which would be highly directional in nature, the pods shall achieve high level of jamming efficacy.
 
We are talking about a very small size, and a lot of antennas across the 5-18 GHz spectrum. So all that power is distributed across a lot of arrays, not just one. That wing-tip jammer is not as big as you think. It's a modernization of the Siva pod, it's not a very large diameter, probably just bigger than a large missile seeker, but with multiple arrays, so the actual load on each band is as small as a BVR missile seeker.

Anyway, the HBJ is not a standoff jammer, it's only an SPJ, so output power requirement is a few dozen watts, 'cause that's the amount of power received from the radar.
I mean what I say more
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The ACM provides 3.5 kW of cooling and can reduce the temperature inside the pod by -30° during operation. The ACM, which is powered solely by the ram air effect utilising the forward speed of the aircraft, is an integral component of ECM pods being developed by the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).



If you dont want to believe thats upto you, and I have never said power distributed to a single array. Furthur, this development it is not a development from SIVA pod, but non-AESA based HBJ for MKI was first displayed in 2017 I think. But afterwards they upgraded it to GaN. SIVA was a HADF pod, and it was nevet meant for jamming.
 
I mean what I say more
View attachment 32787





If you dont want to believe thats upto you, and I have never said power distributed to a single array. Furthur, this development it is not a development from SIVA pod, but non-AESA based HBJ for MKI was first displayed in 2017 I think. But afterwards they upgraded it to GaN. SIVA was a HADF pod, and it was nevet meant for jamming.
Just like to add more, as I have added this image some replies back

1711942974284.png


We have already developed 25-40w GaN MMIC, so it doesnt need to be big as people think.
 
I mean what I say more
View attachment 32787





If you dont want to believe thats upto you, and I have never said power distributed to a single array. Furthur, this development it is not a development from SIVA pod, but non-AESA based HBJ for MKI was first displayed in 2017 I think. But afterwards they upgraded it to GaN. SIVA was a HADF pod, and it was nevet meant for jamming.

The developers themselves stated it's based on the Siva pod.

And yeah, that's a pretty small pod. The requirement is for the MKI to be maneuverable while carrying 2 of them, which wasn't possible with the SAP-518.

Anyway, I'm not disputing the power rating of the cooling system, what I'm saying is the cooling system isn't powering a single array, but at least 4 different arrays. And not just the arrays, it has to cool the power generation system and RWR too.

You are confusing standoff jammers with SPJ.

Now this is the ALQ-99 for the Growler. Look at the size difference.
1.png


Just so you can imagine the scale, the ASPJ is about twice as big as the person's face. Or a little bit bigger than a large watermelon. Its peak power is 6.8-10.8 kW depending on the version. So this is the type of jammer that requires a lot of power, and has an antenna large enough to output that kinda power. Otoh, SPJs do not work with power, they work with waveforms and very low power.

Another fun fact: the NGJ's cooling capacity is 56 kW, while the RAT provides 60 kVA of electricity.

And here's both HBJ and Siva pod in the same image. The HBJ is just an elongated Siva pod.
1.jpg


It's not as large as you think it is. And it always came with GaN right from the beginning.
 
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The developers themselves stated it's based on the Siva pod.
I dont know how they stating it, but ASPJ is the successor of this

And yeah, that's a pretty small pod. The requirement is for the MKI to be maneuverable while carrying 2 of them, which wasn't possible with the SAP-518.

Anyway, I'm not disputing the power rating of the cooling system, what I'm saying is the cooling system isn't powering a single array, but at least 4 different arrays. And not just the arrays, it has to cool the power generation system and RWR too.

Again wrong, the cooling system is implemented inside the pod, and not 1 but 2 go inside MKI. So, 1 cooling system cool 2 array, not 4. Total thermal load of 7 kw. Not 3.5 kw only.

You are confusing standoff jammers with SPJ.

Now this is the ALQ-99 for the Growler. Look at the size difference.
View attachment 32793

Just so you can imagine the scale, the ASPJ is about twice as big as the person's face. Or a little bit bigger than a large watermelon. Its peak power is 6.8-10.8 kW depending on the version. So this is the type of jammer that requires a lot of power, and has an antenna large enough to output that kinda power. Otoh, SPJs do not work with power, they work with waveforms and very low power.
Why are we comparing a new jammer with a jammer from 2000? Even the most optimized GaA MMIC cant go above 15 watt. But comparing a GaN based AESA pod with non-AESA based pod. Thats travesty.

Another fun fact: the NGJ's cooling capacity is 56 kW, while the RAT provides 60 kVA of electricity.
Indeed, its going to be dedicated EW platform, unlike MKI.

And here's both HBJ and Siva pod in the same image. The HBJ is just an elongated Siva pod.
View attachment 32794

It's not as large as you think it is. And it always came with GaN right from the beginning.
This image is from 2017, and now they have even stopped calling it HBJ after 2021. Because they have already extended it to somepart of C-band and upto full Ku-band (WB).
 
Grâce à l’intelligence artificielle, Thales va décupler les performances de la nacelle TALIOS du Rafale
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Thanks to artificial intelligence, Thales will increase the performance of the Rafale's TALIOS nacelle tenfold
BY LAURENT LAGNEAU - 30 MARCH 2024


On 28 March, French defence electronics specialist Thales Group announced the creation of a new entity which, called "cortAIx", will bring together all of its skills dedicated to artificial intelligence [AI] in order to provide "armed forces, armed forces, aircraft manufacturers and all operators of critical infrastructures with highly secure solutions for more effective data analysis and decision-making, while taking into account the specific constraints, such as cybersecurity, embeddability and frugality, associated with critical environments".

"For the past decade, Thales has been a major player in trusted, transparent, explainable and ethical AI. The Group is the leading patent filer in Europe in the field of AI for mission-critical systems. It incorporates AI into more than a hundred of its products and services", added the company.

In detail, the cortAIx structure will be organised into three centres. Based in Saclay, cortAIx Lab will be the "most powerful integrated laboratory in the field of critical AI in Europe". Its research work will be exploited by cortAIx Factory, Thales's 'technology' factory dedicated to artificial intelligence. It will be tasked with accelerating "the qualification and industrialisation of AI development tools and use cases for system data".

"Thales is already equipping its systems with AI and is continuing to identify new use cases to accelerate performance, such as mission planning, air traffic management and the piloting of drones and robots", said the group.

Finally, the third division, called cortAIx Sensors, will focus on integrating AI algorithms into the sensors developed by Thales (sonar, radar, optronics, etc.). The aim is to increase their capabilities tenfold, both in terms of threat perception and target identification.

To illustrate what AI can do in this area, Thales used the example of the Talios (Targeting long-range Identification Optronic System) pod, which can identify and track moving targets of any size, day or night, thanks to its high-resolution electro-optical and infrared sensors.

In November 2022, the French Defence Procurement Agency [DGA] indicated that it had just delivered a TALIOS pod to the French Air Force, enhanced with "two new capabilities", including a "wide field visible colour sensor" and a new data link enabling "video and metadata to be transmitted to ground troops to improve coordination of operations".

However, according to Thales, the artificial intelligence that will be integrated into the TALIOS nacelle will go even further by speeding up the "search for targets in the context of air support missions, thus saving precious crew time".

"The AI built into the sensor analyses images in real time and provides the position of detected targets 100 times faster than by manual search. The display of detected targets enables the crew to confirm their identification and decide whether to engage in combat. The AI acts as an assistant to the pilot, who makes the final decision to open fire", explains the manufacturer.

He added: "The AI on board the Talios pod meets the requirements of frugality in terms of computing power. It is the fruit of research work by the Thales AI laboratory, which has developed the Thales Neural Processor", i.e. a man-machine interface "adapted to the cockpit".

These advances in AI will be incorporated into the Rafale's F4.3 standard.

It should be noted that for the Rafale F5, the development of which is provided for in the 2024-30 Military Planning Law (LPM), there is talk of merging the TALIOS and RECO NG nacelles, studies having been entrusted to Thales LAS as part of the Pod TR project.
 
I dont know how they stating it, but ASPJ is the successor of this

Call it what you want, it's the same form factor.

Again wrong, the cooling system is implemented inside the pod, and not 1 but 2 go inside MKI. So, 1 cooling system cool 2 array, not 4. Total thermal load of 7 kw. Not 3.5 kw only.

Of course it's inside the pod, it's standalone in terms of power and cooling. And it's 3.5 kW for the whole pod, not the array.

Why are we comparing a new jammer with a jammer from 2000? Even the most optimized GaA MMIC cant go above 15 watt. But comparing a GaN based AESA pod with non-AESA based pod. Thats travesty.

How many TRMs are you expecting such a small pod to carry?

Indeed, its going to be dedicated EW platform, unlike MKI.

That's where you need power.

This image is from 2017, and now they have even stopped calling it HBJ after 2021. Because they have already extended it to somepart of C-band and upto full Ku-band (WB).

That only serves to work against your argument. If the jammers goes from C band to Ku band, then it's carrying multiple arrays. You can make X band work from 6-10 GHz, but you need an array or 2 for beyond 10 GHz, up to 18. So that small space will have to carry multiple arrays. Even in the sides if necessary.

So the pod is not only carrying multiple arrays, but also on multiple sides, and that 3.5 kW is distributed to the entire pod, not just the arrays.