Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Lolwa]

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Okh i did gemini, and its quite good , got co conclusion that china can prouduce 100-120 5th gen fighter jet per month is total war , far less than 300 gigure of mine but still very significant (1400 5th gen per year is not joke)

120 5th gen means We have to shot down 4 per day to stop indias defeat , do u think we can ??

We are buying more s400 which is stupid , 5 s400 is enough for now, double down on kusha is better , so is for amca

And amca will be far more effective against j20 then kusha or s400

We don't only need s-400 we also need the AAD(AD1-AD2),s-500/550, David's Sling, Kusha AD, Barak MX/LRAD/MRAD/SRAD, Akash NG/NG2 BukM3, Akash 1S/Prime/2/3, Iron Dome, Tor, QRSAM, Pantsir, Iron beam, DRDO CUAS DEW in a layered network integrated network to actually sustainably fight a prolonged war in a full fledge 2.5 front case.
I haven't even involved EW systems like Samyukta and Krashuska series that need to be mass produced and procured across the entire border region.

 

[PhotonVish]

You seem to be uninformed over the fact that even Russia was experiencing semiconductor shortages and they had to use microprocessors and microcontrollers from literal kitchen appliances to use their drones and munitions.
You seem to be uninformed about the fact that the Chinese control majority of the rare earth metal mines on the planet. And if they wanted they could really limit supply of rare earths to India essentially limiting our capabilities to produce high end avionics and radar. And if you delusionally think that "it won't be a problem saar". The Chinese have already used that tactic against the Americans to great effect to the point American trade war was limited to performative tarrif's and BS.
How exactly are you supposed to sustain a long term war when you are at the mercy of the Chinese in the raw material stage itself.

Yeah just because china can , so we should not prepare, and if thats the case then make strategic reserve for atleast 6 months of rare earth metals and go and and try to find the raw materials in afruca or south america

Your plan is to just give up and become slave of chinease, very thoughtful idea

 

[Tamilan57]

We can not now , nor was china 20 years ago

But We need to develop industrial base and technology inmovation, it takes time but its worth it and actually needed unless u wann become slave of chinease

We should be able to make 100 Tejas Mk2 a year by 2036. That is the first goal. 4.5 gen jets are better in terms of service and maintenance. Cost part and availability of raw materials is another advantage

 

[Lolwa]

Yeah just because china can , so we should not prepare, and if thats the case then make strategic reserve for atleast 6 months of rare earth metals and go and and try to find the raw materials in afruca or south america

Your plan is to just give up and become slave of chinease, very thoughtful idea

You are being too emotional.

 

[lmaoxd]

You seem to be uninformed over the fact that even Russia was experiencing semiconductor shortages and they had to use microprocessors and microcontrollers from literal kitchen appliances to use their drones and munitions.
You seem to be uninformed about the fact that the Chinese control majority of the rare earth metal mines on the planet. And if they wanted they could really limit supply of rare earths to India essentially limiting our capabilities to produce high end avionics and radar. And if you delusionally think that "it won't be a problem saar". The Chinese have already used that tactic against the Americans to great effect to the point American trade war was limited to performative tarrif's and BS.
How exactly are you supposed to sustain a long term war when you are at the mercy of the Chinese in the raw material stage itself.

just saying, your drones and other stuff dont really need any powerful processor... even the most advanced processors used in the military are pretty high in transistor width since they need to be optimized for EW and EMPs. You cant go to 5nm or 7nm for defence applications because 1. its too expensive 2. its too easy to break.

 

[Lolwa]

just saying, your drones and other stuff dont really need any powerful processor... even the most advanced processors used in the military are pretty high in transistor width since they need to be optimized for EW and EMPs. You cant go to 5nm or 7nm for defence applications because 1. its too expensive 2. its too easy to break.

That was never the point of discussion. We could easily sustain a 6 month war against the Chinese provided our energy supply lines aren't targeted.
The problem is when it goes beyond when the Chinese start using their Economic network to control supplies and raw material distribution. We are dependent for stuff like Urea on China. Even if we have some tactically brilliant moves how long does it take before they start using their Economic heft to limit our economy.
The Iranians were using simple circuit boards for their own Ballistic missiles and drones. But they suffer in accuracy for every 100 ballistic missiles they fire 1 or 2 actually hit their targets. Plus they virtually have unlimited fuel. India doesn't have that luxury.

 

[Rajput Lion]

This is what you said:
Su-35(T-10M) had thicker wings over standard Su-27

All they did is strengthen it for more payload. It didn't become thicker.



Su-27M, Su-35, and Su-37 are all the same aircraft.

M is the modernization. 35 is the new designation. 37 comes with new engine and TVC, further modifiication. It's the 11th prototype of the Su-27M/Su-35.



MKI's modifications are all separate from Su-27M. They had nothing to do with each other. Su-27M was used as a TD to develop a new Flanker, and in a separate process Su-30 went through modifications that allowed it to carry a bigger radar, thats all.

Su-27M had far more changes that were also different in the frontal fuselage and internals compared to the Su-30M.



Su-30K was an entirely different aircraft. Adding canards would have pushed it into a full development program.

Su-30MK was entirely different, and came with the ability to add canards, that's how both MKI and MKK got canards. But you couldn't do that on an airframe that did not come equipped for the modernization right from production stage.

Once again, MKI and MKK got TVC and canards in an entirely different process from Su-27M/Su-37. Both jets had different goals. Canards were added 'cause Bars PESA was heavy. On Su-27M, canards were added for more stability post modifications, but to also enhance agility. Later they figured out it was not needed. So Su-27M2 lost canards while retaining TVC, while MKI and Su-35UB were forced to use canards for stability.

If it wasn't for Bars, MKI would not have had canards.



At different standards. This has nothing to do with "Indian weighing system." This is standard physics used globally by all airlines.

The same aircraft has different fuel mass in India and in Russia.

Here, I found something else that explains it in more detail.

How Temperature Affects The Fuel Uplift For Airliners

The amount of fuel an aircraft can carry depends on a lot of factors.

simpleflying.com

Fomin and Gordon are wrong. We know this for a fact. The very fact that Fomin got MKK fuel load wrong while boosting MKI's over MKK should tell you that clearly. You would have had something of substance to argue with had it been the opposite.

The SME's specs show what I said is right. If you use Russia's standard fuel density, you get MKI's figure of 9.64T.

Yes, indeed I said that Su-27M had thicker and more reinforced airfoils/wings than standard Su-27S with more fuel-capacity(inside wings) amd MKI got exactly these same wings and I am correct.

Single seat Su-27 and dual seat Su-27UB combat-trainer or Su-30 both have exact 9.4 tonnes. MKI has exact same fuel-capacity as Su-27M because it has same fuselage and wings tank-capacity sans fuel-tanks in vertical tails. So its fuel capacity is near 10 tonnes. Rest, let's agree to disagree

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2052740737788412387

AI enhanced

 

[GuardianRED]

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Air Marshal Bharti in his
Younger days

https://twitter.com/x/status/2053082560029479052

 

[Rajput Lion]

Air Marshal Bharti in his
Younger days

https://twitter.com/x/status/2053082560029479052

This is how(Yaw control), MKI thrashed Eurofighter Typhoons 12:0 in WVR combat during Indradhanush 2015. This is also what makes MKI almost invincible in close-quarter dogfights with CCMs.

 

[lmaoxd]

This is how(Yaw control), MKI thrashed Eurofighter Typhoons 12:0 in WVR combat during Indradhanush 2015. This is also what makes MKI almost invincible in close-quarter dogfights with CCMs.

everyone knows the MKI is probably the 2nd best WVR fighter after the su57 but WVR warfare is now non existent.

 

[Lolwa]

everyone knows the MKI is probably the 2nd best WVR fighter after the su57 but WVR warfare is now non existent.

WVR combat is essentially dependent on off the bore missiles now. The Russians had a lead in it but if it comes to pure capability of the missile it's really the iris-t and aim9x. K-74 m2 is good but slightly behind. The flankers are good but it's upto question how much thrust vectoring can effect a dog fight with the bigger offbore sight missiles. Although our flankers can employ the asraam the advantages the existed in 2004 don't exist anymore.

 

[Ginvincible]

India is not an industrial giant though. We are at U.K and Japan level economically and unlike them we ain't producing much high technology. India will be dependent on foreign tech for atleast a decade until we don't get our engine, powerplant situation fixed.

Realistically, India has major structural problems that won't be resolved even if it gets to a Chinese level of industrialization. The whole procurement process is hard wired not to make major mistakes rather than push serious reform. There is also an undeniable element of those who will always favor imports over anything indigenous and that faction will never disappear.

Indians should stop preparing their military future around the fantasy that the Indian Air Force will achieve credible peer level manned airpower relevance on the timelines whatever defense officials keep invoking. Not because Indian pilots are bad, not because Indian engineers are incapable, and not because fighters do not matter, but because the state has produced decades of evidence that it cannot convert announcements, contracts, and slogans into timely aerospace mass. The issue is not whether one can imagine a future in which Tejas Mk2 flies on time, Super Sukhoi arrives on time, MRFA moves briskly, AMCA stays on schedule, tankers appear, AWACS mature, and the ecosystem finally coheres. The issue is whether any serious strategist should plan on that future? On the available evidence, no.

@PhotonVish is right that Flankers are outdated and upgrades peobably wont help. The super sukhoi package is still waiting for final clearance and even then, it's basically just an Indian J-11BG. Where he is wrong is placing his faith in the current process. The threat environment is evolving faster than Indian bureaucracy can process paperwork. There's no future where India will be churning out squadrons of 5th gen fighters every month in the next few decades.

I'm not saying that the IAF is hopeless or we should give up on it, but really our focus should move toward denial, resilience, and scalable punishment. Denser ground based air defence, passive sensors, EW, hardened basing, long range conventional strike, attritable drones, maritime interdiction, and private sector mass manufacture of expendable systems. Modern war punishes states that fetishize exquisite platforms while neglecting scale.

 

[Lolwa]

right that Flankers are outdated and upgrades peobably wont help. The super sukhoi package is still waiting for final clearance and even then, it's basically just an Indian J-11BG

The j-11BG doesn't have thrust vectoring. It's descendant from the su-27 the Chinese procured. The su-30 mki is between the j-11 and j-16. Infact it's better than both if you remove the avionics argument. The j-16 is descendant from their su-30mkk and is designed as their heavier ground striker.
The flankers in fact will be relevant for the IAF uptill 2060 and in fact they will continue to be relevant in 2100 provided we continue to upgrade them. The Chinese have around a 1000 flankers. The Russians have a mix of around 500 flankers.
They aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Let's not forget it was the mki with brahmos A that wrecked the PAF on 10th May.
The PLAAF or PAF don't have the variety of A2G munitions that can actually be employed by our flankers. Once Rudram 3 and Brahmos NG are produced and integrated it will be a far bigger problem.

 

[Lolwa]

Denser ground based air defence, passive sensors, EW, hardened basing, long range conventional strike, attritable drones, maritime interdiction, and private sector mass manufacture of expendable systems. Modern war punishes states that fetishize exquisite platforms while neglecting scale.

The Chinese under Qing had faced the same issue when they went against the Japanese and got defeated by a much more dated Japanese navy compared to newly imported ships of the Qing. That is not some new thing.
I have already stated that tactical ballistic missiles, loitering munitions and AD needs to be a strategic priority along with 15-20k km ICBM's targetting Chinese and American mainland.
The Armed Forces guys are busy eating kebab and drinking sharaab so it's to be expected they won't care much for indigenisation when they behave like spoilt jocks who want the shiniest new toy.

 

[Rajput Lion]

everyone knows the MKI is probably the 2nd best WVR fighter after the su57 but WVR warfare is now non existent.

With HOBS, it's better than anything out there. The Canards(on top of enlarged LERX) + TVC + HOBS missiles which are carried outside(the seeker also has wide slew angle/FOV) + HMDS give it uncanny ability to whoop anything in close-quarter turning dogfight with WVR IR missiles.

With guns only dogfight Su-57 is most definitely no. 1.

And non-existent is a wrong word. Less frequent? Yes. Non-existent? Not at all.

WVR combat is essentially dependent on off the bore missiles now. The Russians had a lead in it but if it comes to pure capability of the missile it's really the iris-t and aim9x. K-74 m2 is good but slightly behind. The flankers are good but it's upto question how much thrust vectoring can effect a dog fight with the bigger offbore sight missiles. Although our flankers can employ the asraam the advantages the existed in 2004 don't exist anymore.

MKI can employ ASRAAM, MICA IR & even Python 5. In WVR IR missiles only fight, it'll kill everything and move away without a sweat. Even in guns-only dogfight, it's as good as it gets(though may not be the best). MKI UPG. upgrade shall enhance its BVR combat potential as well and it'll be able to fight 5th gen threats under our IADS cover using its on-board and off-board sensors.

So, all-in-all, MKI will remain our backbone well into 2050s.

 

[lmaoxd]

MKI will be our backbone heavy fighter until around 2050 when we would replace it with a heavy 6th gen class at scale. By then we would have enough money to do that without tooo many issues. We desperately need the su30mki upgrade and the integration with the rudram mk2,3 and astra mk3 and maybe in the future mk4.

With HOBS, it's better than anything out there. The Canards(on top of enlarged LERX) + TVC + HOBS missiles which are carried outside(the seeker also has wide slew angle/FOV) + HMDS give it uncanny ability to whoop anything in close-quarter turning dogfight with WVR IR missiles.

With guns only dogfight Su-57 is most definitely no. 1.

And non-existent is a wrong word. Less frequent? Yes. Non-existent? Not at all.

MKI can employ ASRAAM, MICA IR & even Python 5. In WVR IR missiles only fight, it'll kill everything and move away without a sweat. Even in guns-only dogfight, it's as good as it gets(though may not be the best). MKI UPG. upgrade shall enhance its BVR combat potential as well and it'll be able to fight 5th gen threats under our IADS cover using its on-board and off-board sensors.

So, all-in-all, MKI will remain our backbone well into 2050s.

 

[Lolwa]

MKI will be our backbone heavy fighter until around 2050 when we would replace it with a heavy 6th gen class at scale.

The IAF already has planned it up for 2060's. Knowing the reality it might stay beyond 2060's.

With guns only dogfight Su-57 is most definitely no. 1.

The f-22 still exists.

 

[Speedster1]

The USAF had almost written off the F-15EX a few years back. Now it is buying 200+ birds learning from the Iran air war experience.

This despite the fact that it is currently working on hypersonic weapons small enough for the F-35s IWBs.

The MKI will be our bomb truck of choice for carrying desi MOAB/Daisy Cutter equivalents (reportedly under dev) + ALBMs like Blue Sparrow.