MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 171 77.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 6 2.7%

  • Total voters
    220

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Bangalore
India should have gone for another 36 Rafale back at some point in 2019-2021, same standard as the initial batch. MMRCA2/MRFA just takes too long.
To a point if you think that we will also be losing 3 Darin 2 squadrons and 1 UPG before 2030, 2 Rafale squadrons ordered by 2023 end can still be delivered between 2027-2030. Softening the blow a little bit.

Tejas MK2 will be lucky to get operational in 2030. But after that we have Darin 3, Mirage 2000s and remaining UPGs retiring. The Tejas MK2 will have to cross it's projected orders of 6 squadrons just to cover these. Forget about the retirements we will take from now and till 2030.
And keep in mind PAF has a minimum of 50 JF17 and 36 J10 incoming to replace all of their F7PG and non ROSE Mirages. Any order after 2025 will be to build up for them.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,881
4,688
Bangalore
ASQR for the MRFA has been finalised we are seeking more commitment from the OEMs for ensuring the high Indigenous content in the MRFA : ACM VR Chaudhari
I watched the whole press conference again, in the later part, he explains that
1. RFI responses have been analysed.
2. ASQR is being finalized.
3. IAF reached out to OEMs regarding the local content in the aircrafts.
This madness of indigenous content will lead to failure of the mrfa again.
As of today if ASQR hasnt been finalised, then just wait 😂.... remember 1 year before the General elections , everything big will freeze.
 

marich01

Well-Known member
Aug 17, 2022
426
367
India
I watched the whole press conference again, in the later part, he explains that
1. RFI responses have been analysed.
2. ASQR is being finalized.
3. IAF reached out to OEMs regarding the local content in the aircrafts.

As of today if ASQR hasnt been finalised, then just wait 😂.... remember 1 year before the General elections , everything big will freeze.

Thanks, I also thought it would be in same lines ahead of releasing RFP. I guess the tech transfer clause is probably altered now or replaced with higher indigenous content ?
This is also reported by some

 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,881
4,688
Bangalore
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,881
4,688
Bangalore
My thoughts from our telegram group discussion..


"
If IAF is still finalizing the ASQR for MRFA, we will not see the RFPs anytime soon. And if we cross the 2023, then elections will come and everything will stall again

He should be concerned about getting the fighters and critical technology partnership in Engine , Ejection Seats, etc.

What is the benefit of asking for 60% or 40% local content , will it matter ?

Idiotic antics rahenge to fir to BAE Hawk bhi nahi le paayenge.

Local content, local manufacturing, ToT for local assembly, all these things doesn't matter.

Only 2 things matter

1. Fastest way to get 6 squadrons.
2. Get the French to agree on a realistic deal for Jet Engine cooperation.

If IAF starts looking at it this way, we may go somewhere with MRFA.

Because if all the 114 are made in France without any ToT, or re investment in India, the airframes, the Weapons package, and Service support can be signed for around 15-16 billion USD.

16 billion USD from 2023 to 2033. That can be spent.

But the moment you licence assemble something already made in France, the cost will double. That 16 billion will become 32 billion.

And we cannot pay 32 billion.

"
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
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France

France eyes billion-dollar warplane deals in new strategic partnership with India, UAE


  • France has already sold Rafale fighter jets to India and the UAE but proposed a joint programme for the aircraft under its new trilateral partnership
  • The grouping comes as the countries seek to preserve their ‘strategic autonomy’ amid the US-China rivalry, and follows Australia’s snub of French submarines in favour of the Aukus deal

A French Rafale jet fighter takes off from France’s aircraft carrier Charles-de-Gaulle. Photo: AP

A French Rafale jet fighter takes off from France’s aircraft carrier Charles-de-Gaulle. Photo: AP

France could soon receive billions of dollars of new military orders from its recent formation of a trilateral strategic partnership with India and the United Arab Emirates, analysts have said.

The three-way partnership between the long-standing allies, launched at a meeting of their foreign ministers in New York on September 20, aims to boost maritime security, blue economy and regional connectivity, and food and energy security in the Indian Ocean.
France, India and the UAE were motivated to join hands to preserve their “strategic autonomy” amid diplomatic pressure to side with the US against China, analysts said.

“These middle powers want to retain their own strategic space to manoeuvre amid sharpening great power contestation,” said Harsh V. Pant, a professor of international relations at King’s College London.

“They are reluctant to be part of any one bloc, so enhancing ties among themselves is a good option to retain their strategic autonomy,” he added.

Having already sold large numbers of advanced Rafale multirole fighters to India and the UAE, France proposed the formation of a joint programme for the warplane under their new trilateral partnership, India’s Economic Times newspaper reported after the three foreign ministers met last month.
The new trilateral partnership “certainly helped France’s chances with the Rafale with India”, said Jean-Loup Samaan, a senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore’s Middle East Institute.

Previous Rafale sales to India and the UAE could “pave the way to closer trilateral cooperation in terms of training and joint air exercises”, he said.

Analysts said the trilateral partnership follows France’s lingering sense of betrayal at being unceremoniously deprived in September 2021 of a €35 billion (US$34.3 billion) deal to supply submarines to Australia. The deal went to the US and Britain as part of the trilateral Aukus alliance among the UK, US and Australia.

This persuaded French President Emmanuel Macron to suddenly make concessions on the stalled sale of Rafales to the UAE, leading to the surprise signing of a €17 billion (US$16.6 billion) contract for 80 of the warplanes last December.

Days later, the UAE froze negotiations to buy the F-35 stealth fighters from the US, amid diplomatic tensions arising in part from American pressure on Abu Dhabi to scale back its relationship with China, its second-largest trading partner after India.

Emirati officials rejected Washington’s claims that it had forced the UAE to stop the construction of a suspected Chinese military facility at Port Khalifa.

“The Aukus crisis and the frozen F-35 negotiations gave credence to the initial argument that France, India and the UAE need to build their own foreign policy framework,” Samaan said.

India is evaluating Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, the F-21 variant of Lockheed Martin’s F16, and Sweden’s Saab FAS39 Gripen for a contract for 36 warplanes that would boost the size of its air force to 35 squadrons – still seven short of its targeted strength of 42.

India acquired 36 Rafales between 2019 and July 2022 under a €7.87 billion (US$7.7 billion) contract signed in 2016. The Rafales were deployed to Indian airbases near its disputed 3,488km border with China after their forces clashed in the Himalayan territory of Ladakh in mid-2020.

India is also trialling the Rafale’s naval variant against Boeing’s F/A-18F Super Hornet amid plans to acquire 30 planes for deployment on its first indigenously made aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, which was commissioned in August.

Pant of King’s College said France, India and the UAE would place “a great deal of emphasis” on the co-development of their Rafale programmes.

He said France is a “much less complicated choice” for India than the US, but America’s range of defence manufacturing far outstrips it.

“So wherever possible, India will go to France, but the US will also remain a key player,” Pant said.

France operates a naval base in Abu Dhabi, from where an EU task force patrols shipping lanes that carry the majority of the world’s oil exports and trade between Asia and Europe.

France is also the only Western power that conducts joint naval patrols with India.

The US has acted as the fulcrum for multilateral partnerships formed in recent years in the Indo-Pacific and Middle East regions.

India is part of the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue along with the US, Australia and Japan, while the UAE is a member of the Abraham Accords bloc along with the US, Israel, Bahrain and Morocco.

India and the UAE are both partners in the I2U2 partnership with Israel and the US.

France, India and the UAE will remain important partners of the US, but “a close partnership among themselves will help them in better managing their ties with Washington”, Pant said.

But France’s competitive edge in securing further military deals from India and the UAE may be fleeting, analysts said.

“Those types of sales can be extremely volatile,” Samaan said. “If tomorrow, tensions with China escalate, countries like the UAE and India may consider that for operational and diplomatic reasons, it’s better to be equipped with American platforms.”

 
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Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
564
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Australia
The three-way partnership between the long-standing allies, launched at a meeting of their foreign ministers in New York on September 20, aims to boost maritime security, blue economy and regional connectivity, and food and energy security in the Indian Ocean.
France, India and the UAE were motivated to join hands to preserve their “strategic autonomy”
It's a good idea, more co-operation is good. However does No one sees the hypocrisy in this?
On one hand frogs have said, the trilevel AUKUS makes Australia a vassal of the US. Yet the trilevel partnership brings India autonomy.
 
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Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
219
93
India
Not ordering another batch of 36 Rafales was definitely a big miss. Now with entry of 5th gen fighters in MRCA contest, we may not buy any Rafales whatsoever.

F35 and SU57M....
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,821
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74
France
It's a good idea, more co-operation is good. However does No one sees the hypocrisy in this?
On one hand frogs have said, the trilevel AUKUS makes Australia a vassal of the US. Yet the trilevel partnership brings India autonomy.
1 The article is not French.
2 Who would be the vassal of whom in this association of middle powers?
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,881
4,688
Bangalore
Not ordering another batch of 36 Rafales was definitely a big miss. Now with entry of 5th gen fighters in MRCA contest, we may not buy any Rafales whatsoever.

F35 and SU57M....
The ASQRs aren't finalised yet. 2024 is elections. 1 year before the election date, everything will be frozen.

If it's okay with the mods, I am gonna request them to freeze this thread till 2025 when the RFP may be released. 😂
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,881
4,688
Bangalore
My thoughts from our telegram group discussion..


"
If IAF is still finalizing the ASQR for MRFA, we will not see the RFPs anytime soon. And if we cross the 2023, then elections will come and everything will stall again

He should be concerned about getting the fighters and critical technology partnership in Engine , Ejection Seats, etc.

What is the benefit of asking for 60% or 40% local content , will it matter ?

Idiotic antics rahenge to fir to BAE Hawk bhi nahi le paayenge.

Local content, local manufacturing, ToT for local assembly, all these things doesn't matter.

Only 2 things matter

1. Fastest way to get 6 squadrons.
2. Get the French to agree on a realistic deal for Jet Engine cooperation.

If IAF starts looking at it this way, we may go somewhere with MRFA.

Because if all the 114 are made in France without any ToT, or re investment in India, the airframes, the Weapons package, and Service support can be signed for around 15-16 billion USD.

16 billion USD from 2023 to 2033. That can be spent.

But the moment you licence assemble something already made in France, the cost will double. That 16 billion will become 32 billion.

And we cannot pay 32 billion.

"
With this attitude, somewhere in 2025-26, PAF is gonna get equal in numbers. They currently have 23 combat squadrons, not very far behind in numbers. They have around 60 F7PG and 20 or so F7P/FT7Ps.
For this they are already in the process of adding 50 JF17 Block 3 and the trainers.
Then they have 1 older Mirage III and 3 Mirage V with around 80 airframes. These didn't receive the ROSE upgrade, so will likely be replaced by J10s. They have 3 ROSE squadrons which will retire by 2030 end, so they still have time to maybe order more JF17s or J10s

They aren't going to drop.

On the other hand we will loose 1 more squadron in 2023 , coming to 28 , then 1 more in 2024 (27) and then 1 more in 2025 but will get the 1st Tejas MK1A squadron full. So 27 will hold

After that we will be loosing a minimum of 1 Mig29UPG and 2 Jaguar squadrons by 2030.

But will add 3 more Tejas MK1A.

So we shouldn't fall below the 27 squadron numbers.

By 2030, hopefully Tejas MK2 will start coming and start replacing Jaguar, Mig29 and Mirage 2000 squadrons retiring one for one, maybe with the help of a couple of AMCA mark 1 squadrons.

So we should be able to hold 27 squadron numbers by 2035.

But we will have 4 squadrons in NE and 3 in South India.

So technically it will be 20 squadrons (IAF) vs 23 squadrons (PAF) , whatever the quality may be.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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France
Έλληνας πιλότος για Rafale: ”Εχουμε πια στα χέρια μας ένα game changer που μπορεί να εξουδετερώσει οποιαδήποτε απειλή”
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Greek pilot on Rafale: "We now have in our hands a game changer that can neutralise any threat"


Greece's Armed Forces are monitoring everything. That is why both ground and air assets are in a surveillance role and are expected to monitor every move of Turkish ships in the Aegean Sea. Of course, the new Rafale fighter jets have their own special role, which are expected to be the big nightmare of the Turkish air force! With each passing day the Greek fliers are learning more and more about the French super weapons and getting used to flying with them.

"Our goal is to take this tool and take it even further and once we get the orders to use it regularly we will do it 100%. With this supercarrier the Air Force has become even more powerful and can make a difference in the air compared to any other aircraft," an Air Force pilot tells Alpha who was at Squadron 332, code-named "Falcon", where every day they discover the Rafale's capabilities in the air.

"We now have in our hands a game changer that can neutralize any threat. What we call: game over threat! The Rafale pleasantly surprises us with its capabilities and on this French blast, the Greek Air Force is building the future of the next decade," says a gunner of 332 Squadron.

As for the Meteor missile carried by the Rafale, it is probably the best weapon system currently available: "The chances of an enemy fighter surviving within 60 km are zero. It is probably one of the best missiles and can make the difference compared to any other new generation weapon system. It has a different engine and a different operating philosophy than any other older missile, making it irresistible in a demanding battle."