MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 171 77.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 6 2.7%

  • Total voters
    220
Jul 25, 2022
28
11
None
The way our procurement is going on . We might just deserve an *censored* whooping in the next war. Even then we will be stupid enough to not learn the lessons.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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If you want to licence build a modern jet in India, you need a minimum order of 120 units over a 10 year long time to make it economic.

You reduce the numbers then it becomes difficult, if you persist, then the smaller number will have much higher per unit cost.

Second thing is atleast half of the order will have 50%+ kits manufactured in Europe and then shipped to India. This means double taxation, double work hours and tremendous increase in the cost.

The 3rd thing is defining the ToT. Its difficult.

Due to these 3 reasons the MMRCA 2.0 in its current avatar is stuck.

(Note: IAF capex is reserved like 70% for domestic Procurement. To start the deal 15% of the value of total amount will need to be paid upfront in foreign currency. A very big strain )
 
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Ashwin

Agent_47
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In the present situation and what has been the aftermath with the Chinese at LAC(We have essentially lost at the negotiating table again) we need everything we can get our hands on. Buying the su-35's shouldn't be a problem and the mig 29smts provided the Russians can sell it to us on time. But we will have to two things which will sound as make a wish but this is what we need to do.
Ask the Russians for license production of al-41's if possible otherwise no point in buying su-35's. Integrating the r-37 on all flankers.
Then ask the americans for f-15EX and f-18 superhornet/growler license production with license production of ge engines. That is ge-404, ge-414 and ge-F110-GE-132. And produce around 120 f-15EX and 200 super hornets. Along with license producing Rafale for MMRCA. Yes it sounds stupid and costly. But we have no other choice really. Tejas production is far too slow and half of our airforce is dated and we need to take on around 400 PAF aircrafts and around 600 PLAAF aircrafts. We have an air force of 600 aircrafts in entirety.
Yes it's a money bleed and that's what foerginers want from us but there's no point. Unless we don't start mass producing and give massive priority on the airforce. These things will continue.
Let me reiterate, there is no chance of a new heavy fighter from east or west. Airforce requirements did not change. PLAAF upgraded bases near LAC and we reciprocated. It's just childish to compare fighter numbers one to one especially on such terrain. In this decade LCA, AMCA, MRFA, and Mk2 will be inducted as per plans today.
 

marich01

Well-Known member
Aug 17, 2022
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From the beginning, Modi government haven't gone for any big purchase.
Biggest of all is 36 Rafales.
I don't think they would buy big deals even in next term.
They will only allow spending on local pool of companies. In a way that is a good thing, it should give a big kick to various small to mid level start ups to up their game all the time. The downside is it is very hard to maintain same level of investment into R&D without proper order amount. So a lot of these startups are probably already funded by the bigwigs like Adani L&T reliance etc. In due time those companies will buy these small companies out. Unless one of the big three get into aerospace/fighter jet industry properly, there won't be enough sustained push. There should be at least 1 competitor to HAL.
Defense sector is BJP's major election propaganda, just have a look in today's trend topic on twitter


 
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Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
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) We lost to Chinese in LAC during 2019 standoffs. 2) we need to spend money to uprate our defence preparedness, and that too on foreign weapons as no indigenous solution is far away from reality.
I always agreed with the second part. And the first loss is entirely because of how badly the guys negotiated with the virus spreading bugs.
Biden coming to power has been disastrous for us
 
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Lolwa

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How is it possible to finance 3 foreign fighter simultaneously made in India?

We are not able procure 1 MMRCA., whose cost may exceed 30 billion$ in say 10 years.
We can honestly if we spend 100 billion dollars is chump change for us. Setting up a G2G deal with the Americans for license production is easy and Americans will happily comply. While the mrfa either goes to the Rafale or typhoon. At best 60 billion$ are spent for this but the way government is functioning at this speed. It will only get difficult. We need atleast 600 tejas Mk1a/b and 400 tejas mk2 also
 

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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I always agreed with the second part. And the first loss is entirely because of how badly the guys negotiated with the virus spreading bugs.
Biden coming to power has been disastrous for us
You cannot blame some random guy who holding power in a nation from another continent for your failure . Do bider forces chinese to invade you? No. Do Biden ask us to left the area to Chinese? No. Its your inability to hold against Chinese causes the disaster, you got 20+ years after kargil to build your military & airforce , you didn't do anything. 20+ years is sufficient timeframe to induct a rafale or equivalent type with reasonable squadron strength? Whome to blame for that? Its your mf(mc) politicians to blame.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
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We can honestly if we spend 100 billion dollars is chump change for us. Setting up a G2G deal with the Americans for license production is easy and Americans will happily comply. While the mrfa either goes to the Rafale or typhoon. At best 60 billion$ are spent for this but the way government is functioning at this speed. It will only get difficult. We need atleast 600 tejas Mk1a/b and 400 tejas mk2 also

By the the time we get all, Chinese would have proliferate d 5 th generation fighters ..

My opinion is we need to assess how many squads we need..
Supposing we need 40 squad s having a life of 40 years, then we need to make 1 squad every year to replace older ones.

We have started with Mk1A, will move on to Mk2 then TEDBF / ORCA then AMCA..

We should spend money where we aren't making efforts to do R&D..
 

Hydra

Banned
May 19, 2020
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By the the time we get all, Chinese would have proliferate d 5 th generation fighters ..

My opinion is we need to assess how many squads we need..
Supposing we need 40 squad s having a life of 40 years, then we need to make 1 squad every year to replace older ones.

We have started with Mk1A, will move on to Mk2 then TEDBF / ORCA then AMCA..

We should spend money where we aren't making efforts to do R&D..
MK1a, MK2,TEDBF/ORCA & AMCA mk1 arent gen 5 fighters, none of them are made its first flight also as on today. If you are thinking gen4/4+ are useles against Chinese gen 5 fight, then those fighters are also useless against china.
So in that case why dont you go directly to MRFA? Atleast there wont be any delay in that option.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
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MK1a, MK2,TEDBF/ORCA & AMCA mk1 arent gen 5 fighters, none of them are made its first flight also as on today. If you are thinking gen4/4+ are useles against Chinese gen 5 fight, then those fighters are also useless against china.
So in that case why dont you go directly to MRFA? Atleast there wont be any delay in that option.
Su 35, F18, F15, Rafale .. Minimum 10 + years to induct. Imagine the weapons we need to import for such big zoo..

Better with Mk1A, Mk2, Tedbf & Amca .
Tedbf / orca is semi stealth will be in MRFA category or higher.. Maybe 5 - 10 years behind MRFA but it ll allow more benefit s which u may be knowing already.

MRFA is only needed until we reach production of TEDBF / ORCA.
 

Hydra

Banned
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Su 35, F18, F15, Rafale .. Minimum 10 + years to induct. Imagine the weapons we need to import for such big zoo..

Better with Mk1A, Mk2, Tedbf & Amca .
Tedbf / orca is semi stealth will be in MRFA category or higher.. Maybe 5 - 10 years behind MRFA but it ll allow more benefit s which u may be knowing already.

MRFA is only needed until we reach production of TEDBF / ORCA.
If we signed the deal today, the aircraft shoud start come out after 4-5 years, i dont know from where you get this 10 year figure.
MK2 just got approval for development, its anew airframe, it does require intense testing, i dont beleive thos fan boy narration like by 2028 it will finish its development. If they able achieve , its a miracle. Even if they succeed that highly optimistic timeframe ,still it will not match Rafale,it may even inferior to Gripen.
Now other aircraft you mentioned,let them sanction the development first before coming to a conclusion.

There is only three possibilities for someone to oppose mrfa & pushing indigenous platforms 1)a false flagger 2) an ignorant on ground realities existing on indian aviation R&D capabilities as well as industrial capabilities 3) just shear an ego.
 
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Hydra

Banned
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Su 35, F18, F15, Rafale .. Minimum 10 + years to induct. Imagine the weapons we need to import for such big zoo..
Lastly IAF will place orders only one type of aircraft in mrfa tender. They are not going to make it as a zoo as you said. Even if they made their inventory lke a zoo, what's the problem in it? Look at what USAF is like?it's like a jumbo circus,yet it's the best airforce in this world. If you know what is your requirement & if you choose it wisely,things will be beneficial for you.
 

Jersey27

Member
Nov 26, 2021
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Lastly IAF will place orders only one type of aircraft in mrfa tender. They are not going to make it as a zoo as you said. Even if they made their inventory lke a zoo, what's the problem in it? Look at what USAF is like?it's like a jumbo circus,yet it's the best airforce in this world. If you know what is your requirement & if you choose it wisely,things will be beneficial for you.
Was that a serious comment?? Look at the budgets of USAF and IAF before talking.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
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(Note: IAF capex is reserved like 70% for domestic Procurement. To start the deal 15% of the value of total amount will need to be paid upfront in foreign currency. A very big strain )
In case of GtoG agreement the first payment may be far smaller. It's mainly a question of confidence.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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In case of GtoG agreement the first payment may be far smaller. It's mainly a question of confidence.
Not a lot of OEMs will be having a lot of confidence in MoD,India right now.

A G2G deal can be a solution, but is a difficult thing to actually execute given domestic politics will make life difficult for the signing government.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
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By the the time we get all, Chinese would have proliferate d 5 th generation fighters ..

My opinion is we need to assess how many squads we need..
Supposing we need 40 squad s having a life of 40 years, then we need to make 1 squad every year to replace older ones.

We have started with Mk1A, will move on to Mk2 then TEDBF / ORCA then AMCA..

We should spend money where we aren't making efforts to do R&D..
We atleast need 50 squadrons of 4,4.5 and 5 gen fighters atleast to comfortably defend. 64 squadrons if we want power project. 40 squadrons is too small considering even the Pakistanis have 30+ squadrons.
 
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Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
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You cannot blame some random guy who holding power in a nation from another continent for your failure . Do bider forces chinese to invade you? No. Do Biden ask us to left the area to Chinese? No. Its your inability to hold against Chinese causes the disaster, you got 20+ years after kargil to build your military & airforce , you didn't do anything. 20+ years is sufficient timeframe to induct a rafale or equivalent type with reasonable squadron strength? Whome to blame for that? Its your mf(mc) politicians to blame.
You are delusional. Everybody knows why there hasn't been no major induction and that's entirely blamed on that useless AK Anthony. Unnecessary blacklisting of private firms that have niche techs that could fulfil our requirements.
Not a lot of OEMs will be having a lot of confidence in MoD,India right now.

A G2G deal can be a solution, but is a difficult thing to actually execute given domestic politics will make life difficult for the signing government.
The government has full majority. If it was not ruled by literal illiterates they could crush the bs spreading media houses. Journalists are anyway no different to prostitutes.
 

Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
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Rafale F4 all the way. Just order 3 squadrons in a gov to gov deal and move on.

Just wish SU57 or a twin seat SU60 could have also participated🤷‍♂️
 

Hydra

Banned
May 19, 2020
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You are delusional. Everybody knows why there hasn't been no major induction and that's entirely blamed on that useless AK Anthony. Unnecessary blacklisting of private firms that have niche techs that could fulfil our requirements.

The government has full majority. If it was not ruled by literal illiterates they could crush the bs spreading media houses. Journalists are anyway no different to prostitutes.
Ak antony played his own incompetence for 10 long years, & modi government is doing the same for last 8 years.

One thing i wanna tell you, unlike congress in UPA the BJP in NDA is nor obliged to give any sort of explanation to the other members of coalition. They enjoying brute majority now, they can do many things if they want. But instead, they dragged MMRCA 2 in to another endless loop of tendering process. Instead of easing procurement, they poured more strings of restrictions to all tenders, no wonder why p75I in the verge of collapse. When comes to AK203, the one of the slogan in 2019 election campaign of smt Irani was like 70 years congress rule didn't bring any industry to amethi ( she is right), but now they brought AK factory to Amethi, did we even sign the deal? AFAIK indo russia mou was come in to exist befor 2019 itself. And anti tank missile? Where is the new one? Man UPA & NDA are two side of same coin.
I do agree that, NDA was entirely different during Atalji was pm & Fernandez was DM.

So stop blame alone Antony for everything.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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France to order 42 Dassault Rafale fighters in 2023

The French Ministry of Armed Forces will order 42 Dassault Rafale fighters in 2023 to close the capacity gap created by the sale of 24 second-hand aircraft to Greece and Croatia.

In 2020, then-defense minister Florence Parly announced the objective to raise the number of Rafale fighters, the backbone of the French Air Force, from 102 to 129 jets by 2025. But the recent commercial success of the fighter jet disturbed this roadmap.

In January 2021, Greece signed an order for 18 Rafale F3R fighters for the Hellenic Air Force, in the context of increased territorial tensions with Turkey.

For the delivery to take place as early as possible, 12 of the fighters were deducted from the inventory of the French Air Force. A month later, an order for 12 Rafales was placed to replace the second-hand aircraft.

In May 2021, it was Croatia’s turn to buy 12 used French F3R Rafale fighter jets to modernize the country’s air force. However, this time, no new order was placed by France.

The setback was confirmed by the French Chief of the Defense Staff, General Thierry Burkhard, in a hearing with the French Parliament in October 2021.

“In 2025, the target was 129 Rafale, but once the [24] Rafales have been removed and those that will be purchased added, we will end up with 117,” Burkhard told the Defense and Armed Forces Commission.

And Dassault’s assembly lines should be busy for the foreseeable future as, in December 2021, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) signed a deal for 80 new Rafales, the largest order in the history of the aircraft. Additionally, Indonesia signed a tentative order for six Rafales in February 2022, though that contract is on hold due to funding issues.

Though the goal for 2025 will be missed, the Ministry of the Armed Forces does aim to replace the 12 Croatian Rafales. The 2023 budget presented to the French government on September 26, 2022, confirmed that 42 additional Rafales would be ordered, and delivered between 2027 and 2030.

“The consequences of the slight drop in the Rafale fleet over the next two years will concern less operational contracts than pilot training capacities: this year, 164 hours per fighter pilot compared to approximately 147 hours for the next two years,” Deputy Chief of Staff Frederic Parisot warned in a parliamentary hearing on July 20, 2022. “However, the situation remains acceptable, provided that the aircraft of the [future orders] are delivered on time.”

These 42 new aircraft will likely be delivered in the F4 standard, currently under development. The F4 Standard will focus on improving the connectivity of the Rafale with other systems through new satellite and intra-patrol links, communication servers, and software radio. Flight tests of the Rafale F4 started in April 2021 at the Dassault Aviation Flight Test Center in Istres, southeastern France.