MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Ankit Kumar]

The 21 Mig29 SMT deal will not happen because IAF has experienced the same issue with the RD33 series 3 engines it uses , same problems in FADEC like the RD33 MK of IN.

So IAF will not be going for more Mig29s. That's for sure.

And additional 12 Su30MKI if it doesn't happen my start of next FY, will never happen. That's for sure too.

 

[Herciv]

https://www.aerospatium.info/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/DA00031154_S.jpg

 

[Ashwin]

Note (Just for future reference) Might happen/ Might not Happen

Russia has a squadron worths Su35 originally meant for Egyptian Airforce, but undelivered to Egypt due to American pressure on Egypt. Russia is searching for customers for this around 18-20 airframes.

Russia has reached out to Algeria, Vietnam, China , Iran and "India" for it.

If MRCBF goes to SH, and Russians offer the squadron for good price and we get Americans to ignore CAATSA for one more time, IAF may buy this as emergency purchase.

Lots of ifs and buts. But as we are discussing things, so am putting this out.

No chance, we are not looking for a new fighter of that class.

The 21 Mig29 SMT deal will not happen because IAF has experienced the same issue with the RD33 series 3 engines it uses , same problems in FADEC like the RD33 MK of IN.

So IAF will not be going for more Mig29s. That's for sure.

Not true, it's only because of political climate. There is no such issues blocking deal.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale : une partie de la commande signée en Indonésie est entrée en vigueur

Rafale: part of the order signed in Indonesia has entered into force

Six Rafales out of the 42 ordered have been put into service. Indonesia has officially become the 7th customer of the Dassault Aviation Rafale.

Part of the order for 42 Rafales, signed last February by Indonesia, has been put into effect, according to concordant sources. That is six Rafales out of the 42. This means that the first instalment has been paid by Indonesia to Dassault Aviation. It was paid recently, according to La Tribune. Why only 6 out of 42? The Rafale contract in Indonesia is divided into two tranches, the first of six aircraft more or less financed (about 1.3 billion dollars), followed by another of 36 aircraft with no real budget. However, the prices of the Rafales are indexed to a global order of 42 aircraft.

"We have agreed on the purchase of 42 Rafales" with "a contract signed for the first six," Indonesian Defence Minister Prabowo Subianto said in February at the signing ceremony after a meeting with his French counterpart Florence Parly in Jakarta.

Indonesia has officially become the seventh export customer. The list of international customers for the Rafale, which some people said was unsaleable, continues to grow: Egypt (55 aircraft), Qatar (36), India (36), Greece (18), Croatia (12), United Arab Emirates (80) and now Indonesia (6 out of 42). Dassault Aviation expects to receive further orders from Serbia and India before the end of the year. Decisions that could nevertheless slip into 2023.

A total contract of 8.1 billion dollars

The payment of this advance puts an end to the uncertainty surrounding this order due to the complicated political context in Indonesia. "These two contracts are not yet in force," said Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier on 20 July during the presentation of the company's half-yearly results. Dassault Aviation had signed a contract for the sale of 42 Rafale F3R (30 single-seaters and 12 two-seaters) for a total amount of 8.1 billion dollars including weapons, the Ministry of Defence said in February. The first deliveries of Rafales will take place three years after the contract comes into force. That is, in 2025.

To honour all the arms contracts signed - notably with France, Italy (Fincantieri) and Great Britain (Babcock International) - by Prabowo Subianto but not really budgeted, the minister needs a defence budget of more than 21 billion dollars in 2023. Far, far away from the current defence budget ($9.3 billion in 2022). Only President Joko Widodo, who is also his great rival on the Indonesian political scene, has the possibility to unblock the situation via a presidential decree. Emmanuel Macron met with Joko Widodo at the end of June on the sidelines of the G7 Summit in Elmau. They discussed strengthening the bilateral relationship between Indonesia and France. By obtaining the long-awaited down payment, Dassault Aviation has succeeded in gaining a foothold in Indonesia, which has become a new customer for Dassault Aviation's combat aircraft.

Michel Cabirol

 

[Lolwa]

No chance, we are not looking for a new fighter of that class.

Not true, it's only because of political climate. There is no such issues blocking deal.

In the present situation and what has been the aftermath with the Chinese at LAC(We have essentially lost at the negotiating table again) we need everything we can get our hands on. Buying the su-35's shouldn't be a problem and the mig 29smts provided the Russians can sell it to us on time. But we will have to two things which will sound as make a wish but this is what we need to do.
Ask the Russians for license production of al-41's if possible otherwise no point in buying su-35's. Integrating the r-37 on all flankers.
Then ask the americans for f-15EX and f-18 superhornet/growler license production with license production of ge engines. That is ge-404, ge-414 and ge-F110-GE-132. And produce around 120 f-15EX and 200 super hornets. Along with license producing Rafale for MMRCA. Yes it sounds stupid and costly. But we have no other choice really. Tejas production is far too slow and half of our airforce is dated and we need to take on around 400 PAF aircrafts and around 600 PLAAF aircrafts. We have an air force of 600 aircrafts in entirety.
Yes it's a money bleed and that's what foerginers want from us but there's no point. Unless we don't start mass producing and give massive priority on the airforce. These things will continue.

 

[Lolwa]

Lol. Oh is that right? How is the F-15EX/E inferior to Rafale? Also I guess by your "logic" the most famous/combat proven multirole fighter, the F-16, is inferior because it started as low cost air to air fighter?

Only in terms of RCS. The f-15EX loses in a bvr fight against a 4.75 gen fighter. Simply because Boeing didn't do any RCS improvement for the eagles.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

In the present situation and what has been the aftermath with the Chinese at LAC(We have essentially lost at the negotiating table again) we need everything we can get our hands on. Buying the su-35's shouldn't be a problem and the mig 29smts provided the Russians can sell it to us on time. But we will have to two things which will sound as make a wish but this is what we need to do.
Ask the Russians for license production of al-41's if possible otherwise no point in buying su-35's. Integrating the r-37 on all flankers.
Then ask the americans for f-15EX and f-18 superhornet/growler license production with license production of ge engines. That is ge-404, ge-414 and ge-F110-GE-132. And produce around 120 f-15EX and 200 super hornets. Along with license producing Rafale for MMRCA. Yes it sounds stupid and costly. But we have no other choice really. Tejas production is far too slow and half of our airforce is dated and we need to take on around 400 PAF aircrafts and around 600 PLAAF aircrafts. We have an air force of 600 aircrafts in entirety.
Yes it's a money bleed and that's what foerginers want from us but there's no point. Unless we don't start mass producing and give massive priority on the airforce. These things will continue.

Have seen a few tweets saying it's Iran who is going to buy the Su35s meant for Egypt.

 

[A Person]

Have seen a few tweets saying it's Iran who is going to buy the Su35s meant for Egypt.

That'd make sense. Iran can only buy military equipment from Russia and China and is not in a position where CAATSA would affect it more than it already is.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That'd make sense. Iran can only buy military equipment from Russia and China and is not in a position where CAATSA would affect it more than it already is.

It seems a barter trade to me. Ammunition, drones in exchange for a squadron worth of Su35.

 

[Hydra]

In the present situation and what has been the aftermath with the Chinese at LAC(We have essentially lost at the negotiating table again) we need everything we can get our hands on. Buying the su-35's shouldn't be a problem and the mig 29smts provided the Russians can sell it to us on time. But we will have to two things which will sound as make a wish but this is what we need to do.
Ask the Russians for license production of al-41's if possible otherwise no point in buying su-35's. Integrating the r-37 on all flankers.
Then ask the americans for f-15EX and f-18 superhornet/growler license production with license production of ge engines. That is ge-404, ge-414 and ge-F110-GE-132. And produce around 120 f-15EX and 200 super hornets. Along with license producing Rafale for MMRCA. Yes it sounds stupid and costly. But we have no other choice really. Tejas production is far too slow and half of our airforce is dated and we need to take on around 400 PAF aircrafts and around 600 PLAAF aircrafts. We have an air force of 600 aircrafts in entirety.
Yes it's a money bleed and that's what foerginers want from us but there's no point. Unless we don't start mass producing and give massive priority on the airforce. These things will continue.

Congratulations for showing courage to admit the truths.1) We lost to Chinese in LAC during 2019 standoffs. 2) we need to spend money to uprate our defence preparedness, and that too on foreign weapons as no indigenous solution is far away from reality.

I dont agree with you on Russian weapons, we should not purchase any weapons from Russia, even if hey ready to sell at immense discounted price.

 

[Sathya]

..

In the present situation and what has been the aftermath with the Chinese at LAC(We have essentially lost at the negotiating table again) we need everything we can get our hands on. Buying the su-35's shouldn't be a problem and the mig 29smts provided the Russians can sell it to us on time. But we will have to two things which will sound as make a wish but this is what we need to do.
Ask the Russians for license production of al-41's if possible otherwise no point in buying su-35's. Integrating the r-37 on all flankers.
Then ask the americans for f-15EX and f-18 superhornet/growler license production with license production of ge engines. That is ge-404, ge-414 and ge-F110-GE-132. And produce around 120 f-15EX and 200 super hornets. Along with license producing Rafale for MMRCA. Yes it sounds stupid and costly. But we have no other choice really. Tejas production is far too slow and half of our airforce is dated and we need to take on around 400 PAF aircrafts and around 600 PLAAF aircrafts. We have an air force of 600 aircrafts in entirety.
Yes it's a money bleed and that's what foerginers want from us but there's no point. Unless we don't start mass producing and give massive priority on the airforce. These things will continue.

How is it possible to finance 3 foreign fighter simultaneously made in India?

We are not able procure 1 MMRCA., whose cost may exceed 30 billion$ in say 10 years.
Further we have depend for Upgrade which will be another bomb shell. Not to mention armaments.

U want us to buy x 3 times that?

U want to increase defense budget?
That means u need to cut budget for something else.

Political WILL is necessary for every thing.

 

[Hydra]

..


How is it possible to finance 3 foreign fighter simultaneously made in India?

We are not able procure 1 MMRCA., whose cost may exceed 30 billion$ in say 10 years.
Further we have depend for Upgrade which will be another bomb shell. Not to mention armaments.

U want us to buy x 3 times that?

U want to increase defense budget?
That means u need to cut budget for something else.

Political WILL is necessary for every thing.

How its possible, one way is increase the defense budget, we arent Even spending 2% of our GDP for defense. Heard that we usrd to spende 5-7% of GDP after 62-65 war. Another way is give tax exception to capital & spare purchase on defense materials.

MMRCA failed because we become miser ,and we payed the price in Feb 27.

 

[Sathya]

How its possible, one way is increase the defense budget, we arent Even spending 2% of our GDP for defense. Heard that we usrd to spende 5-7% of GDP after 62-65 war. Another way is give tax exception to capital & spare purchase on defense materials.

MMRCA failed because we become miser ,and we payed the price in Feb 27.

Simply cut down the free bies and ads for political gains .. Throughout the country and in states.. U will get more than what's required.

 

[marich01]

The reason MRFA/MMRCA is not progressing because Gov & MoD have set a mandate for cutting down import orders just to show decrease in money we spend on imports & are absolute hell bent on implementing this one way or another. They will not write a cheque for any major/minor foreign procurement that go through G2G route or normal tender process, at least till 2024 election. MRFA will proceed imo if BJP is back in power only. A G2G rafale deal is in the pipeline for early 2023 which is not exactly MRFA.

You just have to look at procurement tenders recently, easy to see army finally buying in MoD push. The idea now seems instead of just stopping the forces from spending, MoD cleared urgent procurement only from domestic market. This suits Gov agenda and army, navy are ok with it. IAF on other hand, still trying to play a game of who blinks first re foreign procurement if you follow their camp. At every opportunity they keep pushing for MRFA agenda but MoD not in any mood to clear it until at least tejas jets properly come into service. Out of the tri services IAF is probably most dependent on foreign imports I guess, even considering HAL does su30. That is going to change. I can not blame MoD for lack of trying, Rajnath Singh pushing through some US tech,assets made via make in India route.

About IAF procurement, two points are very important;
IAF does not want another really heavy category plane on top of Su30. They are only open to getting the 12 su30 & talk with Russia apparently are at advanced stage.
IAF want to emphasis on rafale like multirole fighters that is less heavy than Su30 (or f15ex)
So if these are set agendas , where do we go? Obviously IAF wants one thing, MoD wants a part of that thing. Lets see who blinks first.
This also completely closes the door for the Su35, IAF rejected SuSu upgrade based on Su35 already from what I read before. Even if Russia offer at heavy discount I do not think they will go for it.
Curious about Su57 though, I wonder if IAF/MoD would like one stealth jet in before Amca comes? Probably not, but we can pay Russia by rupee so who knows.

Previously when I suggested the f15ex idea, it was on basis of cost & weight factor of getting 6 Tu160 and the 12 Su30 IAF need to procure to cover previous losses. Since then everything I hear from IAf & mrfa talks its clear to me 2sqn worth of F15ex never gonna happen as all parties involved in our side are not interested in it.

Btw, new MRFA tender go out again at the end of 2022 or is it already up? Do the companies involved will go thru a round of trial?

Simply cut down the free bies and ads for political gains .. Throughout the country and in states.. U will get more than what's required.

That is what I would like to see to happen too, but don't think BJP gov will want to lose the mileage it brings before election.

 

[marich01]

It seems a barter trade to me. Ammunition, drones in exchange for a squadron worth of Su35.

Won't mind license production of those delta winged drones here from Iran, who are pushing for more trade.
The sorry state of our drones from HAL DRDO ADA makes me think again about the capability factor. It is not completely wild to imagine both us & Russia have very bad level of tech progress in MALE HALE drones. Even the S70 and ghatak have similar structure. perhaps they share tech with DRDO with an agreed acceptance of a few years gap in between, Russia will make it first then us?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Won't mind license production of those delta winged drones here from Iran, who are pushing for more trade.
The sorry state of our drones from HAL DRDO ADA makes me think again about the capability factor. It is not completely wild to imagine both us & Russia have very bad level of tech progress in MALE HALE drones. Even the S70 and ghatak have similar structure. perhaps they share tech with DRDO with an agreed acceptance of a few years gap in between, Russia will make it first then us?

We lack in surveillance and Loitering Munitions.

We don't have UCAV (propellor driven) requirement.

 

[Sathya]

The reason MRFA/MMRCA is not progressing because Gov & MoD have set a mandate for cutting down import orders just to show decrease in money we spend on imports & are absolute hell bent on implementing this one way or another. They will not write a cheque for any major/minor foreign procurement that go through G2G route or normal tender process, at least till 2024 election. MRFA will proceed imo if BJP is back in power only. A G2G rafale deal is in the pipeline for early 2023 which is not exactly MRFA.

You just have to look at procurement tenders recently, easy to see army finally buying in MoD push. The idea now seems instead of just stopping the forces from spending, MoD cleared urgent procurement only from domestic market. This suits Gov agenda and army, navy are ok with it. IAF on other hand, still trying to play a game of who blinks first re foreign procurement if you follow their camp. At every opportunity they keep pushing for MRFA agenda but MoD not in any mood to clear it until at least tejas jets properly come into service. Out of the tri services IAF is probably most dependent on foreign imports I guess, even considering HAL does su30. That is going to change. I can not blame MoD for lack of trying, Rajnath Singh pushing through some US tech,assets made via make in India route.

About IAF procurement, two points are very important;
IAF does not want another really heavy category plane on top of Su30. They are only open to getting the 12 su30 & talk with Russia apparently are at advanced stage.
IAF want to emphasis on rafale like multirole fighters that is less heavy than Su30 (or f15ex)
So if these are set agendas , where do we go? Obviously IAF wants one thing, MoD wants a part of that thing. Lets see who blinks first.
This also completely closes the door for the Su35, IAF rejected SuSu upgrade based on Su35 already from what I read before. Even if Russia offer at heavy discount I do not think they will go for it.
Curious about Su57 though, I wonder if IAF/MoD would like one stealth jet in before Amca comes? Probably not, but we can pay Russia by rupee so who knows.

Previously when I suggested the f15ex idea, it was on basis of cost & weight factor of getting 6 Tu160 and the 12 Su30 IAF need to procure to cover previous losses. Since then everything I hear from IAf & mrfa talks its clear to me 2sqn worth of F15ex never gonna happen as all parties involved in our side are not interested in it.

Btw, new MRFA tender go out again at the end of 2022 or is it already up? Do the companies involved will go thru a round of trial?

That is what I would like to see to happen too, but don't think BJP gov will want to lose the mileage it brings before election.

From the beginning, Modi government haven't gone for any big purchase.
Biggest of all is 36 Rafales.
I don't think they would buy big deals even in next term.

 

[Hydra]

Simply cut down the free bies and ads for political gains .. Throughout the country and in states.. U will get more than what's required.

If A didn't give freebies,B will promice to do it an B will win the election & power.

 

[Sathya]

If A didn't give freebies,B will promice to do it an B will win the election & power.

That's the sad state of us.
At the end we won't have money to do anything significant ..

 

[Hydra]

From the beginning, Modi government haven't gone for any big purchase.
Biggest of all is 36 Rafales.
I don't think they would buy big deals even in next term.

Salesman of promises.