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vstol Jockey

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@Falcon

Pakistan will Do what ever it wants
And when ever it wants , and Everything is
A target for them

They Cannot be Reasoned with or made to feel Guilty

We can be sure of their Evilness


We have only One Leverage ie Military Retaliation
Let me tell you that the self restraint of 27th is being debated in highest echelons of powers that be in India. The ROE for 27th have come under lot of fire and now it is clear that we will fire back using our best AAMs even on PAF aircraft flying within Pak Airspace. Now there will be no holding back. We will shoot these *censored*s the moment they set course towards LOC/International border. Su-30MKI guys have not liked being called sissies in the battle when a Mig-21 became the show stopper.
 

CountryFirst

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Dec 11, 2017
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This a cost we have to pay for being a sham democracy with a Supreme Court which is driven more by western Ideas than Indian. The very first line of our constitution says, "We the people of India that is Bharat, give this constitution to ourselves". The Supreme Court was created under this constitution to safeguard Indian way of life and our social structure. BUT, Supreme court has exceeded its brief and have tried to align Indian society with western values. I want to ask, is it the Supreme Court that we wanted when we created our Constitution?

It is not a ratified constitution. And so not a supreme court we created for ourselves.
 

Hellfire

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https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...adio-call-before-he-fired-f-16-kill-shot.html

An interesting article from Shiv Aroor.

As the stand-off strikes took place, an air-to-air battle commenced with the two Indian Su-30s reporting (in their debrief) repeated radar locks from what they say were Pakistani F-16s beyond visual range, and manoeuvering in the air to turn ‘cold’ on the weapon locks. IAF sources indicated to Livefist that the said F-16s were looking specifically to shoot down a Su-30 — something that would have been a major loss for the IAF. The Su-30s (and later, three of the MiG-21s) are said to have flown patterns to remain ‘kinematically safe’ against the repeated AMRAAM locks even as the distance between the Indian and Pakistani jets loosely closed over the Line of Control. The hot-cold radar lock sequence continued for several minutes, with the said PAF F-16s repeatedly attempting to sustain locks on the Su-30 MKIs long enough for meaningful shots. Sources say the three AMRAAMs were launched in DMAX-1, the dynamic attack zone where the missile is unleashed at the limits of its range. On all three occasions, the Su-30s used countermeasures to dodge the incoming weapons.

While the other jets, including the Mirage 2000s also recorded locks on them from the said F-16s, Wing Commander Abhinandan’s MiG-21 out front was also ‘hot’ on an AMRAAM. However, he was now fully within visual range of an F-16 that was turning away to speed back towards Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Livefist has been given to understand that Wing Commander responded to two warnings from radar controllers to turn back (since he was minutes from crossing into hostile airspace) with radar calls saying he had an aircraft in visual range and was attempting a manual close combat lock. Moments later, with his lock confirmed, he gave a final call saying he had the lock tone, before launching a single Vympel R-73 heat seeking missile. The pilot would later record in a debriefing that he saw his missile hit the retreating F-16 in the port rear section and that it was brought down. Moments later, as Wing Commander Abhinandan initiated evasive maneouvers to defeat the incoming AMRAAM, the missile struck his MiG-21, forcing the pilot to punch out.

The R-73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan was the only Indian weapon launched during the aerial engagement, leading the Indian Air Force to officially attribute the F-16 kill to him. None of the other jets launched weapons — IAF sources suggest this was owing to a lack of target solutions at beyond visual range, though this will be the subject of investigation. It is also likely that rules of engagement had been modified, though the IAF has refused to confirm or deny. Several such questions remain unanswered at this time, including just why even a large package of fighters were able to test the ‘air superiority’ capabilities of the Su-30 MKI, the flagship of the Indian Air Force.

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@vstol Jockey @Falcon
1) What does going cold in an event of radar lock mean? do the pilots move away or angle such that it is difficult for the radars to get a lock-on?

2) It is unbelievable or rather untrue that we do not have BVR target solutions. The sukhois as well as Mig 21s carry BVR R27/R77s.


Very personal opinion, which I mentioned earlier too, he broke the Rules of Engagement, which were merely to defend the Indian Airspace as no war had been declared by the GoI against Pakistan, in accordance to those existing which are designed to operate under the aegis of agreements entered into. The nature and scope of engagements is very clear to every service personnel, it does not depend on their whims and fancies to 'tweak' them as per wish.

When people question Su-30 MKIs not deploying the BVRAAMs, they forget that even PAF was using jammers and it takes time to 'burn' through jamming at those distances. Secondly, use of BVRAAM would have entailed a possible strike on a PAF aircraft say 4 kms on their side of LC, a technical violation by them and India being well within its rights to shoot down, but by the time a BVRAAM would have reached, the possibility of it being jammed and becoming harmless or 'killing' an aircraft which was egressing the zone and leading to wreckage falling well beyond the 10 km limit was equally high, both being a situation which had the potential to paint India as undertaking aggressive actions against PAF, thereby undermining Indian position of WoT to War on Pakistan. The ramifications in terms of diplomatic and military situation would have been far greater and adversarial.

Thirdly, he broke the protective cover being provided by Su-30 MKIs and in chase to get a kill, he crossed the LC and was shot. He was responsible for actions that he undertook and their consequences, unfortunately, affected the options the GoI had when PAF undertook an aggressive action in J&K.

Let me be very blunt and clear about it. I can still expect a youngster, with a few months of service, falling for such actions of 'kill' but not a Wing Commander with almost 14 pluse years of service.
 

Hellfire

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At first it did looked like we lost the media war, but after giving some early statements ISPR had gone silent. Now the pak media & defense are in shame and embarrassment about the pilot they have lost.

The war of Perceptions will be won by those who will speak less. This is an era of information explosion. Information warfare has to be calibrated as everything has a record and is recordable, it comes back to bite if played incorrectly, But at the same time, Information denial (by blocking access or subverting the content) is also a part of the same.

What do you think India is upto, no GoI and IAF confirmations but loads of speculation from sources which media plays and Pakistan reacts to?

One must ponder over that aspect too.
 

NKVD

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Very personal opinion, which I mentioned earlier too, he broke the Rules of Engagement, which were merely to defend the Indian Airspace as no war had been declared by the GoI against Pakistan, in accordance to those existing which are designed to operate under the aegis of agreements entered into. The nature and scope of engagements is very clear to every service personnel, it does not depend on their whims and fancies to 'tweak' them as per wish.

When people question Su-30 MKIs not deploying the BVRAAMs, they forget that even PAF was using jammers and it takes time to 'burn' through jamming at those distances. Secondly, use of BVRAAM would have entailed a possible strike on a PAF aircraft say 4 kms on their side of LC, a technical violation by them and India being well within its rights to shoot down, but by the time a BVRAAM would have reached, the possibility of it being jammed and becoming harmless or 'killing' an aircraft which was egressing the zone and leading to wreckage falling well beyond the 10 km limit was equally high, both being a situation which had the potential to paint India as undertaking aggressive actions against PAF, thereby undermining Indian position of WoT to War on Pakistan. The ramifications in terms of diplomatic and military situation would have been far greater and adversarial.

Thirdly, he broke the protective cover being provided by Su-30 MKIs and in chase to get a kill, he crossed the LC and was shot. He was responsible for actions that he undertook and their consequences, unfortunately, affected the options the GoI had when PAF undertook an aggressive action in J&K.

Let me be very blunt and clear about it. I can still expect a youngster, with a few months of service, falling for such actions of 'kill' but not a Wing Commander with almost 14 pluse years of service.
Manu Puby version of 27 th feb

Pakistan broke LoC rules; India went by book
 

Hellfire

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The sukhoi jamming pods saved both themselves and other Indian aircraft until the wing Commander decided to move out of the protection as he chased the f 16 for the lock. @vstol Jockey, doesn't bring up another point? We have been talking so much about the bison shooting that we haven't spent anytime analysing the lovely contribution the sukhois made. So many times the f16s tried to get a firm lock on many of the jets including the sukhois and kept failing due to excellent maneuvering and electronic warfare
Even if 1 sukhoi had gone down it would have been major PR disaster for us. They really prove their moneys worth.


Because ROE precluded any act that shows IAF undertaking aggressive actions not mandated as defensive vide mutual agreements. Explained earlier.
 

Hellfire

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I think this is overestimation.I don't accept that after paf fighters come and bomb indian territory,IAF didnt have permission to shoot.It seems with amraam had earlier locks at range even though at that range its largely useless against countermeasures.Its not good that sukhois fired no bvr of their own.I retain my doubts on untested r-77.


Ok.

ROE is very clear. Read posts as earlier.
 

Hellfire

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But then ROE applied violated from Pakistani's side And violation of it required prompt action by IAF


ROE is clear, enagage within 10 kms on their side when you can prove that the AC was in violation - done by ensuring a kill when the aircraft will surely fall either in that 10 km range or own side. Any other action, is a slugfest which you can prove not.
 
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vstol Jockey

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But once they ingressed into our territory, all our actions become defensive right?
The truth is that Pakistan has always shown us the path to escalation and how to defeat them. BUT we always decided not to walk that that path. Now we have a Govt which wants to go down that path. 27th engagement is what PAF in particular and Pakistan overall will rue for generation if they have anymore generations. They have now given us the license to Kill. 007 is what is the new code word of every IAF pilot.
 
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Hellfire

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A fanboy post suitable for PDF.

The new narrative in Pakistan is to somehow justify that F-16 didn't violate any agreement, from NOT using F-16 to F-16 deployed as per contract.

Daily a campaign is launched in Pakistani media to dig out old tweets or documents of US officials however informal to justify f16 didnt violate any contract, compare this to initial claims of not using f16 in that combat, ISPR suffocating and trying to find something, anything to remain afloat after that costly failed raid.


There is no bar on their use of F-16. Forget all that hoopla.

Don't give him blank checks like this. He will pull ANYTHING from his backside and offer that as an answer.


Poor in taste. Absolutely poor sir.

Should have done it before Imran went for borrowing world tour ...

Some might have hesitated to help them..


Try and list out how much help has made it to Pakistan right now. And you do need a bargaining chip always. You can not control events once they start.
 

vstol Jockey

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There is no bar on their use of F-16. Forget all that hoopla.
In fact when US cleared sale of blocked F-16 with AIM-120C5, they has clearly stated that it was to give some kind of fight back capability to pakistan. Please don't get fooled by what US says. If they are really serious about a startegic relationship with India, they must activate the kill switch in F-16s and AMRAAMs they gave them. No AMRAAM supplied to any nation including NATO memebers can ever lock on to a US aircraft.
 

Hellfire

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This is Manu puby Description of events

Pakistan broke LoC rules; India went by book

NEW DELHI: When the Pakistan Air Force used American-supplied Amraam (advanced medium-range air-to-air missile) in the Nowshera sector, it violated rules of engagement as the missiles were used for first strike, giving F16s a temporary advantage, forcing defending Indian Air Force fighters to take evasive action.

The subsequent shooting down of an F16 by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman is being defined as a defensive action after his MiG21 was targeted and at least three more Amraam ..

defined as a defensive action after his MiG21 was targeted and at least three more Amraams locked in Su30MKIs deployed to thwart the air intrusion. As more details of the February 27 aerial battle emerges, it is clear that PAF fired at Indian jets first and one F16 of its strike package of three fighters that had intruded went down after a brief aerial duel within visual range. The standing rules of engagement — and they applied on the morning of February 27 as India had declared that its air strikes at Balakot the previous day was a non-military action against terrorists — do not permit fighter jets to fire across LoC. The use of force is permitted only in case of an air intrusion or if fired upon.


PAF took advantage of Amraam, with a set of F16s firing at Indian targets from across LoC, at a distance of over 50 km. The other set, which intruded into Nowshera was thwarted by the MiG21s scrambled from Srinagar, with Varthaman managing to bring one down with a short-range R73 missile. “Used in the first strike role from across the LoC, Amraam would have been a surprise factor, given the standoff range it has,” said veteran fighter pilot during Kargil, Sameer joshi

While Su30MKIs with their R77 missiles were capable of targeting the F16s — they are believed to have also locked their radars into the enemy — the surprise first strike took them temporarily off target as they took emergency countermeasures. In the subsequent minutes when the Indian jets moved back into position, the F16s retreated but not before one of them was shot down.


“Whoever shoots first has the advantage. But it is commendable that the MiG21 still managed to target lock the technologically superior F16 while under attack,” a military source said. If Rafale fighter jets were operational, it could have been a game changer, given the Meteor long-range air-to-air missile that it is armed with.

Considered as the most potent air-toair missile in the world, the Meteor has a range of over 100 km that would have outclassed the Amraams and possibly deterred the offending F16s from shooting first. The S400 air defence system, expected to be delivered by next year, would also have kept Pakistani fighter jets at bay. With a range of over 400 km, S400 would be capable of taking down Pakistani fighter jets deep within its territory, in case restrictions on the rules of engagement had been lifted


SURPRISE FIRST STRIKE OFF GUARD ... fiction likh raha hai?
 

Bharath

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I hope india could get some undamaged parts of Amraam to get some technologies or to develop counter ..
we dont need to get a used AMRAAM for that. the entire F-16 singapore fleet is stationed in India and train with our pilots - thats how we know the radar sigs of F-16s.
 
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Hellfire

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Our non-sensical baggage of neutrality refuses to evolve. One can be neutral yet be part of initiatives of various such fora.

What statement sir ?


Read the TOINS sir.

Its Pakistan, as long as we sit and do nothing. We are gradually going to loose lives. Its simply does not seem healthy for a country as diseased as Pakistan to exist besides India in its current state. Way back in 2011-12, I had hope that they would learn from their war on terror, the APS massacre and the countless lives they had lost. The first thing they did after stabilizing their internal situation was to focus on India. India will always remain their prime focus. There is only one way to solve that problem.


Even if you exercise a military option like IAF strike, you will lose lives. If you undertake a full fledged war, you will still lose lives Point?
 
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Hellfire

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Sir if we de escalate now for say three months, in that period , what steps can we expect from the World community

As far as we have seen in the past
When ever we descalate , Pakistan goes
Back to its earlier habits


I will give you a counter. Why escalate? What has changed?
 
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