ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

screambowl

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They are currently deciding on which private company will be involved in the R&D phase.
Yeah they are still deciding. :cool:
Kaveri can't power AMCA the way it is today. A new engine program is planned. F414 will be the interim engine.
K9/ K10 is still an imagination. Seems like they themselves don't know what they want. Kaveri failed to generate 100kN within weight limitation, it's heavy, why do they think that kaveri tech specification will be implemented in new engine. They want to ruin the JV I guess. I don't think any one will be ready using Kaveri as base, its a small engine, good thrust for that size but heavy one.
The F-35's EODAS is outdated. The Litening G4 alone is two generations ahead of the EODAS
But India still doesnt have that indigenous manufactured, that's the problem it's a foreign tech. The Mig 29 and Su30s were fitted later on.
It will be better if India also produces such system.
 

randomradio

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K9/ K10 is still an imagination. Seems like they themselves don't know what they want. Kaveri failed to generate 100kN within weight limitation, it's heavy, why do they think that kaveri tech specification will be implemented in new engine. They want to ruin the JV I guess. I don't think any one will be ready using Kaveri as base, its a small engine, good thrust for that size but heavy one.
The Kaveri engine itself is fine for its thrust goals, it has not been designed for 100KN. It's gonna be used in IUSAV instead.

The K10 and the AMCA's engine are two different programs. The 100KN thrust K10 is meant for the MWF, or even as AMCA's interim engine, and of course for TEDBF and next gen UAV/UCAVs. AMCA's engine will be designed for 110-115KN and will be a next gen engine and will have its own spin-offs.

But India still doesnt have that indigenous manufactured, that's the problem it's a foreign tech. The Mig 29 and Su30s were fitted later on.
It will be better if India also produces such system.
We are already working on an indigenous IRST and targeting pod. The IRST will be used on the MKI and MWF, while the targeting pod will be used by the entire air force. There's also MAWS in development.
 

screambowl

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The Kaveri engine itself is fine for its thrust goals, it has not been designed for 100KN. It's gonna be used in IUSAV instead.
So you are saying that IAF guys messed up?:LOL:

The K10 and the AMCA's engine are two different programs.
Which is of more priority?
I think the lean manufacturing itself is in turmoil.
or even as AMCA's interim engine, and of course for TEDBF and next gen UAV/UCAVs. AMCA's engine will be designed for 110-115KN and will be a next gen engine and will have its own spin-offs.
So many projects and nothing as of now. IA doesn't even have a decent UAV to be deployed like Pakistan has.
I think it's better that they should rather doing R&D directly buy F414 produce is under license and fit in all of their AMCA and MWF.
Because every project is atleast 3-4 billion dollars, and they won't get that much money sanctioned by the Govt of India.

So two engines, two planes of different role models, are they nuts?



We are already working on an indigenous IRST and targeting pod. The IRST will be used on the MKI and MWF, while the targeting pod will be used by the entire air force. There's also MAWS in development.
yes but they are still in very very early phase. 6-7 years minimum for their trials on suited platforms. And by that time they would require new up gradations.
 

Hydra

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The Kaveri engine itself is fine for its thrust goals, it has not been designed for 100KN. It's gonna be used in IUSAV instead.

The K10 and the AMCA's engine are two different programs. The 100KN thrust K10 is meant for the MWF, or even as AMCA's interim engine, and of course for TEDBF and next gen UAV/UCAVs. AMCA's engine will be designed for 110-115KN and will be a next gen engine and will have its own spin-offs.



We are already working on an indigenous IRST and targeting pod. The IRST will be used on the MKI and MWF, while the targeting pod will be used by the entire air force. There's also MAWS in development.
Why can't we use japanese XF9? Immensely powerful yet small as f14 tomcat's engine. Generate 180KW electricity, it can easily power up all electronics of AMCA.
 

screambowl

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Why can't we use japanese XF9? Immensely powerful yet small as f14 tomcat's engine. Generate 180KW electricity, it can easily power up all electronics of AMCA.
Because of two issues.

1. Complete TOT , which may be Japan won't give
2. Cost ( considering no TOT) if ToT happens then I don't think cost is issue.

Although Japanese are looking for partner in their 6th gen stealth program, but I don't think they are reluctant in sharing the engine tech.
 

Hydra

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Because of two issues.

1. Complete TOT , which may be Japan won't give
2. Cost ( considering no TOT) if ToT happens then I don't think cost is issue.

Although Japanese are looking for partner in their 6th gen stealth program, but I don't think they are reluctant in sharing the engine tech.
1) no one is going to share tot of a jet engine, not even russians.
2) cost should not be a pblm with xf9. If yoy see the dimension of the engine & thrust, the electrical power out we can conclude that it is the best jet engine currently available in market. We should not hesitant in negotiating with japanese on that particular engine.
 

randomradio

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So you are saying that IAF guys messed up?:LOL:
Nope. It was made for LCA. Not for MWF, TEDBF etc.

Which is of more priority?
I think the lean manufacturing itself is in turmoil.
Both are of priority. But one is to be made with foreign technology, and the other with foreign assistance.

So many projects and nothing as of now. IA doesn't even have a decent UAV to be deployed like Pakistan has.
IAF's standards are too high. The crap that PAF operates is of no use to us.

I think it's better that they should rather doing R&D directly buy F414 produce is under license and fit in all of their AMCA and MWF.
Because every project is atleast 3-4 billion dollars, and they won't get that much money sanctioned by the Govt of India.
MWF will get F414, but AMCA will need a superior engine.

So two engines, two planes of different role models, are they nuts?
Lol. Why?

yes but they are still in very very early phase. 6-7 years minimum for their trials on suited platforms. And by that time they would require new up gradations.
Nope. They are more advanced compared to anything in the market and will remain advanced for quite sometime. Take European tech for example, their most advanced stuff when it comes to IRST is single colour while we are making a dual colour one. Rafale is expected to get a dual colour one in 2025, around the same time as MWF and MKI. Typhoon and Gripen are not as of now, and will take a long time to get the same upgrade. Plus, except for Rafale, the Typhoon and Gripen's IRST are not completely sensor fused with the other sensors in the aircraft.

Our LDP will be made for our entire fleet and will be a sensor-fused and fully networked system. We won't get anything like that from anywhere else.

And anything indigenous is quick to get upgrades. For example MKI is already entering its 3rd generation of upgrades when it comes to EW, which is fully digital, wide band and has GaN, same as what the US is getting on its F-15s now and European jets will get after 2023, starting with Gripen and then Rafale.

You are happily and ignorantly underestimating the advances we have made in the field of electronics.
 
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Hydra

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The XF9 is in a totally different class compared to what's needed for AMCA.
Slightly bigger engine than f414, but the power especially the electrical out is monstrous even much higher than.the F35's engine . And the thrust can be adjusted afaik, we can even cap it for 120KN. So its a different class, but slight reworking on AMCA will bring wonders.
 

screambowl

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Lol. Why?
They don't have budget. They botched up kaveri's core. Do you think 10 billion dollars if asked by DRDO will be sanctioned in a long run? And with past performance CAG will blame DRDO. I am sure the already allotted budget is not yet spent LOL. They should expand what they can afford. Because this is not an investment like other defence companies do. Because they also don't have any potential buyers.

Both as on date are some superficial projects. Please don't say you don't agree. Even you might be laughing on their ideas.

Both are of priority. But one is to be made with foreign technology, and the other with foreign assistance.
There will be big problems while getting the TOT done. Mark this post.
but AMCA will need a superior engine.
At least they should first build the fuselage atleast and test with whatever they have. Who knows they find some new parameters and partners to develop indigenous power plant.
Every one does that. Japs, Russians, the F35 project.




Take European tech for example, their most advanced stuff when it comes to IRST is single colour while we are making a dual colour one. Rafale is expected to get a dual colour one in 2025, around the same time as MWF and MKI. Typhoon and Gripen are not as of now, and will take a long time to get the same upgrade. Plus, except for Rafale, the Typhoon and Gripen's IRST are not completely sensor fused with the other sensors in the aircraft.
This is all in future, don't see it coming before 2029, and MWF is still ages far. As I said they don't even have a fuselage and you expect it to be flying in 2025? No chance.
For example MKI is already entering its 3rd generation of upgrades when it comes to EW, which is fully digital, wide band and has GaN, same as what the US is getting on its F-15s now and European jets will get after 2023, starting with Gripen and then Rafale.
Indians use Israeli avionics, it's not completely indigenous.
 

screambowl

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1) no one is going to share tot of a jet engine, not even russians.
True, and that's why kaveri engine is still struggling. I know what is going to happen with MWF as well. :p
2) cost should not be a pblm with xf9. If yoy see the dimension of the engine & thrust, the electrical power out we can conclude that it is the best jet engine currently available in market. We should not hesitant in negotiating with japanese on that particular engine.
Babus might have approached them who knows. But the point is DRDO still has no fuselage to host the engine and test it :D so right now it is tough to say what modifications are required, how will be the performance. You see!

You negotiate when you already are at the last stage of developing fuselage. Where is the fuselage for test??

Atleast 20 years before AMCA comes. And then you have MWF project running as well.

So they need two engines!!!
 

randomradio

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They don't have budget. They botched up kaveri's core. Do you think 10 billion dollars if asked by DRDO will be sanctioned in a long run? And with past performance CAG will blame DRDO. I am sure the already allotted budget is not yet spent LOL. They should expand what they can afford. Because this is not an investment like other defence companies do. Because they also don't have any potential buyers.

Both as on date are some superficial projects. Please don't say you don't agree. Even you might be laughing on their ideas.
They have the budget for AMCA's engine, but don't yet have a plan for it.

They don't have the budget for K10, but have a plan for it.

Catch 22.

There will be big problems while getting the TOT done. Mark this post.
Won't be a problem for K10. Let's see what's planned for AMCA.

At least they should first build the fuselage atleast and test with whatever they have. Who knows they find some new parameters and partners to develop indigenous power plant.
Every one does that. Japs, Russians, the F35 project.
The IAF plans to buy 40 AMCA Mk1 with F414, 20 IOC and 20 FOC. Other than that, GTRE have 10 years to get an indigenous engine working for AMCA and become operational in 15 years.

I'm sure the fallback plan will be an uprated K10.

This is all in future, don't see it coming before 2029, and MWF is still ages far. As I said they don't even have a fuselage and you expect it to be flying in 2025? No chance.
MWF? It's just a modified LCA airframe. Why will they face problems there?

Indians use Israeli avionics, it's not completely indigenous.
It doesn't have to be fully Indian as long as the IPR is Indian. All this stuff is being developed under Make 2 category.
 
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randomradio

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Slightly bigger engine than f414, but the power especially the electrical out is monstrous even much higher than.the F35's engine . And the thrust can be adjusted afaik, we can even cap it for 120KN. So its a different class, but slight reworking on AMCA will bring wonders.
Stop relying on Wikipedia for specs.

Look at the sheer size difference.




It's impossible to fit XF9 into AMCA, no matter what you do. You have to either completely redesign the engine or the airframe, and both are impossible. And if you redesign the engine, it will have to be called something else. And if you redesign AMCA to fit XF9, you will have to call it AHCA. AMCA will become the same size as Su-57 or F-22 then.
 

Bon Plan

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Stop relying on Wikipedia for specs.

Look at the sheer size difference.




It's impossible to fit XF9 into AMCA, no matter what you do. You have to either completely redesign the engine or the airframe, and both are impossible. And if you redesign the engine, it will have to be called something else. And if you redesign AMCA to fit XF9, you will have to call it AHCA. AMCA will become the same size as Su-57 or F-22 then.
Indeed.
XF9 is a 15+ tons engine. Probably more (18T ?) so not fitted for your AMCA.

Add that it as "just" a R&D effort engine. Not seen so far to be fully produced (but maybe for the Japanese effort to produce a F22 like bird).

And the cost of such an engine, with so small market, will be huge (as F2 cost : more than twice the F16 cost)
 

screambowl

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Stop relying on Wikipedia for specs.

Look at the sheer size difference.




It's impossible to fit XF9 into AMCA, no matter what you do. You have to either completely redesign the engine or the airframe, and both are impossible. And if you redesign the engine, it will have to be called something else. And if you redesign AMCA to fit XF9, you will have to call it AHCA. AMCA will become the same size as Su-57 or F-22 then.

F414 is not built considering stealth specifications
XF9 is built specifically for stealth, that's why it's single stage for high and single stage low compression and other stages as per the norms for stealth, and bit longer, as that reduces the heat signature at exhaust.

Even if we agree that F414 will be perhaps used for AMCA as well. Then it would mean there is out of the box new technology or design marvel with the frame. Install a normal engine, smaller in size, light weight and leave the stealth on the frame. The frame will be longer at the exhaust site to overcome the high temperature exhaust.
Smaller aircraft (low RCS) + Longer exhaust outlet ( cooler the residue) ( s shape ducts)

And I don't understand why they want Ge F414 on everything. Even if they produce a new engine in a JV using Kabine core , i don't see it happening before 2030. They haven't finalized anything yet!!


They have the budget for AMCA's engine, but don't yet have a plan for it.

They don't have the budget for K10, but have a plan for it.

Catch 22.
Well if they have plan then budget should be allotted. That's common sense.

Or may be budget they require is way higher what can be allotted so they started with something which has no plan. Money goes no where :D

The IAF plans to buy 40 AMCA Mk1 with F414, 20 IOC and 20 FOC. Other than that, GTRE have 10 years to get an indigenous engine working for AMCA and become operational in 15 years.
IAF also had plans for LCA Mk1 and still the induction is not complete because everything got delayed.
MWF? It's just a modified LCA airframe. Why will they face problems there?
Problems is the delay which is ought to happen. I don't see it coming before 2029.

XF9 is a 15+ tons engine. Probably more (18T ?) so not fitted for your AMCA.
The point is about their approach, of course it can't be fitted it's long very long. But it's for stealth, unlike Indian planning to use F414 ( non stealth engine) on AMCA. Or co develop with Kaveri engine technology which is still without plan.
 
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randomradio

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And I don't understand why they want Ge F414 on everything. Even if they produce a new engine in a JV using Kabine core , i don't see it happening before 2030. They haven't finalized anything yet!!
Two reasons. Long history, so presence of technicians and procedures for it. It's a product of the tender it won a decade ago for the LCA Mk2. And AMCA needs a proven engine during R&D.

Well if they have plan then budget should be allotted. That's common sense.

Or may be budget they require is way higher what can be allotted so they started with something which has no plan. Money goes no where :D
AFAIK, the process is yet to start. And I think they are looking to finalise the K9 flight testing and K10 development first.

IAF also had plans for LCA Mk1 and still the induction is not complete because everything got delayed.

Problems is the delay which is ought to happen. I don't see it coming before 2029.
Okay.

The point is about their approach, of course it can't be fitted it's long very long. But it's for stealth, unlike Indian planning to use F414 ( non stealth engine) on AMCA. Or co develop with Kaveri engine technology which is still without plan.
Who cares about length? Look at the diameter.
 

vvabhiram

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"Build a jet engine first and design an airframe based on it" - I have read this statement somewhere.

My doubt is if ADA and HAL are equipping AMCA with GE-F414 engine, How can they change the engine once the Kaveri/its derivatives matures on the same platform? Will they design Kaveri/derivative exactly as dimensions of GE-F414 or will they change the dimensions of airframe ?
 

screambowl

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It's a product of the tender it won a decade ago for the LCA Mk2. And AMCA needs a proven engine during R&D.
Works well with the MWF but how would it help in R&D for a stealth engine. Most stealth engines have different core from conventional engines. They are more contra rotation compressors, for easy flow of power in low fuel. I don't think F414 has contra rotation core.
Who cares about length? Look at the diameter.
Well then they should change their AMCA dimensions. Doesn't make any sense of having such dimensions where no stealth engine can be fitted. What exactly they are trying to achieve?