ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

randomradio

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Au contraire it makes perfect sense. Think about how Titan was created from HMT.
It depends. Is there going to be a majority stakeholder? Is it HAL or the private partner? If it's 50-50, then how will that work out?

Who's going to handle the manpower? Is it all going to be deputed from HAL or will the manpower be built up from scratch?

Will it act as an independent PSU or will it act like the private industry?

The fact is the IAF and ADA are trying to reduce the dependency on HAL as much as possible, but something else is in the works behind the scene. Who knows?
 

_Anonymous_

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It depends. Is there going to be a majority stakeholder? Is it HAL or the private partner? If it's 50-50, then how will that work out?

Who's going to handle the manpower? Is it all going to be deputed from HAL or will the manpower be built up from scratch?

Will it act as an independent PSU or will it act like the private industry?

The fact is the IAF and ADA are trying to reduce the dependency on HAL as much as possible, but something else is in the works behind the scene. Who knows?
It's called better be safe than sorry. I doubt any government, whether Indian or foreign will risk seeing a project as critical as the AMCA being handled by a novice. It's always better to go with a known devil.

I expect it to be a JV with the management control vested with the pvt player & HAL supplying the manpower on deputation to this JV.

It's called incrementalism as opposed to the exponentialism you & others were advocating out here. It's the right way to move ahead given the circumstances. I also hope this JV materializes fast & hopefully keeps an eye out for acquisitions - hint : Embraer.
 
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randomradio

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It's called better be safe than sorry. I doubt any government, whether Indian or foreign will risk seeing a project as critical as the AMCA being handled by a novice. It's always better to go with a known devil.

I expect it to be a JV with the management control vested with the pvt player & HAL supplying the manpower on deputation to this JV.

It's called incrementalism as opposed to the exponentialism you & others were advocating out here. It's the right way to move ahead given the circumstances. I also hope this JV materializes fast & hopefully keeps an eye out for acquisitions - hint : Embraer.
What the private player is expected to do is not that difficult though. Although it's possible the private players themselves could have wanted an experienced player in the game.
 

Ashwin

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Question is, why not start implementing this structure from day 1 with MK2 then ORCA, and AMCA? ... till it comes to AMCA everything would have been settled down.
They are sure about mk2. For AMCA, from the start itself ADA tried to get away from HAL.

ORCA is not a serious thing to start with.

The AMCA joint venture company will be based in Coimbatore, where an AMCA ‘site’ has been ready for nearly two years now at the IAF’s Sulur base in Tamil Nadu. According top priority to the program, the IAF has already earmarked 20 acres of land for the JV in Sulur for the final assembly and checkout facility. Testing of the jet will take place at the peninsular base which also houses the IAF’s LCA Tejas squadrons.

While the original plan was for the AMCA JV to be directly between the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and a chosen private sector company, HAL’s involvement in the design of the jet has meant that the state-owned company will be part of AMCA corporate entity. The fact that the AMCA JV is to come up in Sulur in Tamil Nadu, and not HAL’s home turf of Bengaluru, is indicative of this original impulse. Once things get moving, the AMCA will be, by far, Tamil Nadu’s most significant military industrial project.
 

_Anonymous_

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What the private player is expected to do is not that difficult though. Although it's possible the private players themselves could have wanted an experienced player in the game.
If it's not that difficult why would the pvt players want an experienced hand? Pvt players are notoriously profit oriented, in case you haven't noticed. The last thing they'd consent to is dividing the pie into more shares than is necessary.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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What the private player is expected to do is not that difficult though. Although it's possible the private players themselves could have wanted an experienced player in the game.
Dassault is in contact with many Indian subcontractors to carry out the offsets of the Rafale contract. In most cases the subcontractors propose their most experienced personnel to work with Dassault, i.e. often personnel who have already worked on the SU 30 MKI program with HAL. Dassault replies that they prefer junior staff because those who have worked with HAL have developed bad habits that they find very hard to lose, especially since they believe that this is the best way to work.
 

randomradio

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If it's not that difficult why would the pvt players want an experienced hand? Pvt players are notoriously profit oriented, in case you haven't noticed. The last thing they'd consent to is dividing the pie into more shares than is necessary.
I'm just speculating there, assuming that the private industry has decided they need HAL. I'd much prefer they work alone, alongside ADA and IAF and completely eliminate HAL in the process.

I'm actually insinuating something else is in the works and HAL has weaned its way into the AMCA in the process.

If the program is to succeed, HAL definitely has to get kicked out. There's literally no point in developing an aerospace industry if HAL is the only company around. That will guarantee a monopoly for the next 50 years.
 
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_Anonymous_

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I'm just speculating there, assuming that the private industry has decided they need HAL. I'd much prefer they work alone, alongside ADA and IAF and completely eliminate HAL in the process.

I'm actually insinuating something else is in the works and HAL has weaned its way into the AMCA in the process.

If the program is to succeed, HAL definitely has to get kicked out. There's literally no point in developing an aerospace industry if HAL is the only company around. That will guarantee a monopoly for the next 50 years.
I envisage a situation where in the govt will be a stakeholder instead of HAL. Even if it's the latter, in a few years after the FOC, the GoI may well end up selling it's stake to the pvt player & exiting the JV altogether.

In any case let's see which pvt player is chosen & what are the terms of the JV. Otherwise, There'd be no end to speculations . I see @Ashwin has taken HAL's participation in the AMCA project extremely personally. Hope he's not suicidal.Wish he'd borrow some thick skin from you.
 

randomradio

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I don't think MoD will grant budget for this. They have their own AMCA program lagging by 20 years as you already know.
AMCA is going to be a reality only by mid-2030s. We need something proven operational before 2030. And the Su-57 is cheap. The current version was sold at $36M apiece, a modernised version should cost no more than $50-60M, ie similar in price to the MWF. 40 jets with infrastructure, weapons, training and spares should cost no more than $5B. And this is all the way in 2025-30, when we would be a whole lot richer.

Or at max, 10 Su 57 and ToT in RAM coating to build AMCA.
Doesn't make sense. ToT is only production ToT, it will be of no use in developing AMCA. And ToT comes when you buy 100+ jets at once. ToT isn't what you think it is. It's of no use in an R&D program.

Rather cooperation on AMCA can come in through offsets upon buying those 40 Su-57s. It will be an option, although it will be totally unnecessary.

May be because they want to counter S400 and HQ9 with Rafales?
Naturally, the Rafales are needed for other purposes, but the cost of integrating and operationalising Derby ER on MKI is not expensive.

We had experience integrating the Derby on LCA, could have done the same thing on MKI as well.

Or may be to stop French that don't given something to Pakistan, related to scropene subs or old Mirage V?
French cooperation with Pakistan died after the PA killed French engineers due to the non-payment of bribes.
It's ok but will S400 missile batteries be integrated with swordfish? Or you want to say that all missiles and all radars will work as a single unit where the input from every radar shall be used to guide any missiles against target.
Swordfish is a surveillance radar, it won't provide fire control. Only the S-400's FCR can provide fire control.

But the S-400 operator will have data from multiple radars, not just his own.
 

Saaho

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AMCA is going to be a reality only by mid-2030s. We need something proven operational before 2030. And the Su-57 is cheap. The current version was sold at $36M apiece, a modernised version should cost no more than $50-60M, ie similar in price to the MWF. 40 jets with infrastructure, weapons, training and spares should cost no more than $5B. And this is all the way in 2025-30, when we would be a whole lot richer.
AMCA project has way too many things to do. I bet, we won't be raising first squadon of AMCA anywhere before 2047.
 

screambowl

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AMCA is going to be a reality only by mid-2030s. We need something proven operational before 2030. And the Su-57 is cheap. The current version was sold at $36M apiece, a modernised version should cost no more than $50-60M, ie similar in price to the MWF. 40 jets with infrastructure, weapons, training and spares should cost no more than $5B. And this is all the way in 2025-30, when we would be a whole lot richer.
Rather cooperation on AMCA can come in through offsets upon buying those 40 Su-57s. It will be an option, although it will be totally unnecessary.
This only means government has to allot atleast 8-9 bil dollars for stealth aircraft project( procurement and domestic project) because without TOT you can't develop AMCA. But I am very much sure that even procurement will not take less than 20 years. And by then the cost will be triple.
So expect something like that only by 2040. More over the Russians are still dealing with the smoke trails of Su57.

Even if you immediately want to shop them off shelf it will take 5 years with current situation to have 1st one landing in India. Where as China is already producing it's own fighter. Can't say how stealthy it is but atleast they have something in hand.
 

HariPrasad

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AMCA is going to be a reality only by mid-2030s. We need something proven operational before 2030. And the Su-57 is cheap. The current version was sold at $36M apiece, a modernised version should cost no more than $50-60M, ie similar in price to the MWF. 40 jets with infrastructure, weapons, training and spares should cost no more than $5B. And this is all the way in 2025-30, when we would be a whole lot richer.



Doesn't make sense. ToT is only production ToT, it will be of no use in developing AMCA. And ToT comes when you buy 100+ jets at once. ToT isn't what you think it is. It's of no use in an R&D program.

Rather cooperation on AMCA can come in through offsets upon buying those 40 Su-57s. It will be an option, although it will be totally unnecessary.



Naturally, the Rafales are needed for other purposes, but the cost of integrating and operationalising Derby ER on MKI is not expensive.

We had experience integrating the Derby on LCA, could have done the same thing on MKI as well.



French cooperation with Pakistan died after the PA killed French engineers due to the non-payment of bribes.


Swordfish is a surveillance radar, it won't provide fire control. Only the S-400's FCR can provide fire control.

But the S-400 operator will have data from multiple radars, not just his own.
If it is so how do we use it in our BMD program?
 

randomradio

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This only means government has to allot atleast 8-9 bil dollars for stealth aircraft project( procurement and domestic project) because without TOT you can't develop AMCA. But I am very much sure that even procurement will not take less than 20 years. And by then the cost will be triple.
So expect something like that only by 2040. More over the Russians are still dealing with the smoke trails of Su57.
Again, you don't know what ToT is. ToT is of zero use in R&D. Literally zero.

Even if you immediately want to shop them off shelf it will take 5 years with current situation to have 1st one landing in India. Where as China is already producing it's own fighter. Can't say how stealthy it is but atleast they have something in hand.
That's okay. Current Su-57 is not good enough to induct. The next version will come with a new engine and will be suitable for our use.

The current version of J-20 is in a similar boat as the first Su-57, and they may get a proper, well-tested engine well after 2025. The Rafale is more than enough to deal with this threat right now.
 

screambowl

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Again, you don't know what ToT is. ToT is of zero use in R&D. Literally zero.
There are two types of ToT. Horizontal and vertical. What India deals is in 'horizontal ToT', company to company with source codes, design rules and other schematics for repair and maintenance, which is of zero use in R&D and little use in reverse engineering, what China deals is the 'vertical TOT' which comes from R&D institutes, universities and institutes of applied research which is completely used in research.
That's okay. Current Su-57 is not good enough to induct. The next version will come with a new engine and will be suitable for our use.
Oh well you have to wait 2 decades for that. By the time the frame will be 5th generation but avionics 6th generation.
The current version of J-20 is in a similar boat as the first Su-57, and they may get a proper, well-tested engine well after 2025. The Rafale is more than enough to deal with this threat right now.
How about Su 30 fitted with R37?
 

randomradio

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If it is so how do we use it in our BMD program?
The L band Swordfish will perform early warning tasks, so its main objective is to detect a threat, like a ballistic missile.

If the threat is real, then the radar starts tracking it.

If the radar decides the threat is dangerous, then another S or X band will start tracking the missile. And the data from the S/X band radar will then generate fire control data, which is then downloaded into missiles. And then the missiles are launched. After launch, the X/S band will continue providing mid-course updates, and also provide fire control to any follow-on missiles.

In case the X/S band radar is jammed or fails, then the Swordfish will provide fire control, but this data is not going to be as accurate as the data from X/S band radar.
 

randomradio

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There are two types of ToT. Horizontal and vertical. What India deals is in 'horizontal ToT', company to company with source codes, design rules and other schematics for repair and maintenance, which is of zero use in R&D and little use in reverse engineering, what China deals is the 'vertical TOT' which comes from R&D institutes, universities and institutes of applied research which is completely used in research.
You won't get the latter.

All ToT that comes to India is only for manufacturing and maintenance. The same with China. We just get a bit more today than the Chinese did earlier.

Oh well you have to wait 2 decades for that. By the time the frame will be 5th generation but avionics 6th generation.
The new engine is already flying and will be operational in 2025.

How about Su 30 fitted with R37?
R-37 is an outdated missile. It's meant to be used against low agility targets like tranports, bombers, tankers etc. The AAM version of Brahmos is a better bet. But neither can be used against fighter jets.
 

Saaho

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The L band Swordfish will perform early warning tasks, so its main objective is to detect a threat, like a ballistic missile.
I sort of disagree. The technical name for Swordfish is actually "Long Range Tracking Radar". It is indeed the primary tracking and fire control radar for Indian BMD.

Actually, even take a look at Israeli Arrow system from where this radar comes from. In that system as well, the analogous radar (GreenPine) performs ALL early warning detection and primary fire control radar.


EL/M-2080 'Green Pine' (Israel), Battlefield, missile control and ground surveillance radar systems


Type
L-band (1 to 2 GHz) phased-array search, acquisition and fire-control radar.

Description
EL/M-2080 is a transportable system that is made up of a solid-state active array antenna, power and cooling systems and a command and control shelter and acts as the search, acquisition and fire-control sensor for the Arrow Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile Missile (ATBMM). Of the cited system elements, the radar's 9 m wide by 3 m high antenna assembly incorporates an array of transceiver modules and is mounted on a dedicated trailer and positioner. For its part, the system's command and control shelter incorporates operator workstations (used for system monitoring and parameter adaptation), signal processing electronics and communications equipment. The EL/M-2080 power system comprises no-break and transformer containers, with the former including a diesel generator, an inductive clutch control module and a fuel tank. The transformer container houses transformers, a service generator, a direct current converter and switching racks. The radar's cooling system is a heat exchanger that makes use of inherently redundant cascade cooling machines and incorporates an integral coolant tank and control panels. Functionally, 'Green Pine' scans electronically in azimuth and elevation and the system's manufacturer described it as being able to track 'dozens' of targets simultaneously over ranges measured in 'hundreds of kilometres' (up to 500 km according to Jane's sources). EL/M-2080's search, target detection, alert, tracking and guidance functions are noted as being performed simultaneously and the architecture is quoted as being the 'biggest and most complex radar system' ever developed by the Israeli defence industry.
 

randomradio

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I sort of disagree. The technical name for Swordfish is actually "Long Range Tracking Radar". It is indeed the primary tracking and fire control radar for Indian BMD.
Modern radars perform detection, tracking and fire control.

Swordfish can do all three, but it does best when it comes to detection and worst when it comes to fire control. So you need S and/or X band for fire control to make up for the difference, which our BMD does.

Tracking is a basic function and all modern military radars need to be able to do it. And if your tracking data is good enough, then it can be used for fire control as well.

The issue here is that of resources. If the Swordfish eats up resources providing fire control, then it uses less resources in detecting other emerging threats. So the fire control function is handed over to a radar that is much more capable at this task than the Swordfish is.

Second is that of distribution. We only need a few Swordfish radars spread out over our geography, whereas we can pepper the much smaller and cheaper fire control radar all over the place, all connected to their respective missiles and CPs, just like a mobile battery.
 

screambowl

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You won't get the latter.

All ToT that comes to India is only for manufacturing and maintenance. The same with China. We just get a bit more today than the Chinese did earlier.
China has massive presence in universities and R&D institute as well. They are dealing in both vertical and horizontal. They started with horizontal, made money started funding institutions abroad and now have good presence and they are getting it vertically. That is the main difference and that's why your JNU, Oxford, MIT, and many other Australian unis had professors students working on chinese funded projects. And this is why 5g issue got raised.

The new engine is already flying and will be operational in 2025.
So that means, by 2030 the deals will be signed if already in process, before that I don't expect MoD to even look into the brochure. And first one will come by close to 2035-40. But where will be China by then? And if this is the scenario then India should forget AMCA being realized before 2035.

R-37 is an outdated missile. It's meant to be used against low agility targets like tranports, bombers, tankers etc. The AAM version of Brahmos is a better bet. But neither can be used against fighter jets.
Why? the R 37M is a different variant from R37. Brahmos AAM version is still 5-6 years away. You have to match the Chinese now, getting few R37M can do the job. More over the R77 and R 37 use the same kind of seeker. One the booster stage separates the kinematic energy is same as R77m.