ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
China has massive presence in universities and R&D institute as well. They are dealing in both vertical and horizontal. They started with horizontal, made money started funding institutions abroad and now have good presence and they are getting it vertically. That is the main difference and that's why your JNU, Oxford, MIT, and many other Australian unis had professors students working on chinese funded projects. And this is why 5g issue got raised.
So how will that help us get Su-57's "vertical" ToT?

So that means, by 2030 the deals will be signed if already in process, before that I don't expect MoD to even look into the brochure. And first one will come by close to 2035-40. But where will be China by then? And if this is the scenario then India should forget AMCA being realized before 2035.
Only you understand those dates.

Why? the R 37M is a different variant from R37. Brahmos AAM version is still 5-6 years away. You have to match the Chinese now, getting few R37M can do the job. More over the R77 and R 37 use the same kind of seeker. One the booster stage separates the kinematic energy is same as R77m.
The R-37 and R-37M can't take down fighter jets from long range. Doesn't matter if the seeker is better than R-77. Look up the dimensions and agility of the missile.
 

screambowl

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,332
1,085
switzerland
So how will that help us get Su-57's "vertical" ToT?
You fund research and the research is yours. What else?
The R-37 and R-37M can't take down fighter jets from long range. Doesn't matter if the seeker is better than R-77. Look up the dimensions and agility of the missile.
That's experimental because both use different motors.

Su30mki is bulkier so it's let's agile , is a wrong assumption.
 

Saaho

Well-Known member
Dec 27, 2019
1,070
861
Canada
Swordfish can do all three, but it does best when it comes to detection and worst when it comes to fire control. So you need S and/or X band for fire control to make up for the difference, which our BMD does.
A S-band like silver oak or a X-band radar like AN/TYP-2 are indeed superior when it comes to targetting due to enhanced resolution because of lower wavelength.

That said, Indian long range radar for high altitude interception are derived from Israel's radar, green pine to be specific. Actually, India wanted to get access to arrow system but it was denied. So our BMD is essentially having radar derived from Israel's Green pine coupled with our CnC and interceptors.

Now we got our radar from Israel before 2008-9. Till that point Israel was not using X-band or S-band radars in their Arrow BMD. Actually, Israel got its S-band radar (silver oak) in Arrow-2 Block 5 and for X-band radar (AN/TYP-2) it still depends upon USA to provide it access to the radar tracks and targetting data. AFAIK, Israel's Arrow system are integrated with AN/TYP-2 radar but those radar are NOT manned by Israel's own personnels but US personnels. Its a sensitive system which US seems to be reluctant to allow access to.

In a nut shell, we do not have a X-band or S-band fire control radar for ballisitic missile defence because Israel herself does not have of its own. This is why we make do with L-band radar.
 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
381
210
India
In a nut shell, we do not have a X-band or S-band fire control radar for ballisitic missile defence because Israel herself does not have of its own. This is why we make do with L-band radar.
We do have both S band and now X band radars for BM defence. Elta/ElM - 2090 spectra is S band radar and is in use in Indian BMD system.
VC11184 ocean surveillance ship probably carry same Elta-ELM 2090 S band AESA and a brand new X band AESA radar.
 

Saaho

Well-Known member
Dec 27, 2019
1,070
861
Canada
We do have both S band and now X band radars for BM defence. Elta/ElM - 2090 spectra is S band radar and is in use in Indian BMD system.
Never heard it being present in India. Source?

VC11184 ocean surveillance ship probably carry same Elta-ELM 2090 S band AESA and a brand new X band AESA radar.
VC11184 will carry DRDO High Power Radar, AFAIK. Its detection range is also < 500 KM.
 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
381
210
India
Never heard it being present in India. Source?
From DRDO site. Look at the bottom most right BMD radar.
images - 2020-05-25T151250.480 (1).jpeg


10762849_addtext122103_14_40_jpeg0b918d5e27e9a3fc381a8856991fc6d6 (1) (1).jpeg


Screenshot_2020-05-20-22-35-55-13 (1).jpg


. VC11184 will carry DRDO High Power Radar, AFAIK. Its detection range is also < 500 KM.
a bigger Iteration of it with only one sided Panel unlike DRDO ground base HPR for IAF which will be like Aegis ashore radar.

images - 2020-06-30T144839.693.jpeg


so range would be much higher.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
You fund research and the research is yours. What else?
So you're saying the Su-57 was designed by the Moscow State University and not Sukhoi?

When it comes to the US, you can't fund foreign research into core technologies like aerospace, even military tech. And even if you somehow did it, you can't take it out of the country. The only people allowed to work on such technologies are green card holders and citizens.

That's experimental because both use different motors.

Su30mki is bulkier so it's let's agile , is a wrong assumption.
You're gonna have to read up on the tech specs of the missile.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
A S-band like silver oak or a X-band radar like AN/TYP-2 are indeed superior when it comes to targetting due to enhanced resolution because of lower wavelength.

That said, Indian long range radar for high altitude interception are derived from Israel's radar, green pine to be specific. Actually, India wanted to get access to arrow system but it was denied. So our BMD is essentially having radar derived from Israel's Green pine coupled with our CnC and interceptors.

Now we got our radar from Israel before 2008-9. Till that point Israel was not using X-band or S-band radars in their Arrow BMD. Actually, Israel got its S-band radar (silver oak) in Arrow-2 Block 5 and for X-band radar (AN/TYP-2) it still depends upon USA to provide it access to the radar tracks and targetting data. AFAIK, Israel's Arrow system are integrated with AN/TYP-2 radar but those radar are NOT manned by Israel's own personnels but US personnels. Its a sensitive system which US seems to be reluctant to allow access to.

In a nut shell, we do not have a X-band or S-band fire control radar for ballisitic missile defence because Israel herself does not have of its own. This is why we make do with L-band radar.
The Indian BMD has Swordfish for surveillance and a French radar that's simply called MFCR for fire control.

There should be a whole host of other radars as well. At least 2 S band radars are around, apart from the Swordfish.
 

screambowl

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,332
1,085
switzerland
So you're saying the Su-57 was designed by the Moscow State University and not Sukhoi?
In europe unis and companies work hand in hand.
When it comes to the US, you can't fund foreign research into core technologies like aerospace, even military tech. And even if you somehow did it, you can't take it out of the country. The only people allowed to work on such technologies are green card holders and citizens.
I had posted some report from internet how chinese funded research and projects through unknown investors or havign investors in MSS into Israel's cyber infrastructure development providing software for defence, why do you think Chinese ambassador was shot in Israel? Must be something happening isn't it?

How russian and chinese got Stealth, there is famous case!
You're gonna have to read up on the tech specs of the missile.
This is why I told you its experimental.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
In europe unis and companies work hand in hand.
In India as well, but the Chinese do not fund military research.

I had posted some report from internet how chinese funded research and projects through unknown investors or havign investors in MSS into Israel's cyber infrastructure development providing software for defence, why do you think Chinese ambassador was shot in Israel? Must be something happening isn't it?
Okay, only you can help India get ToT on Su-57 by investing in Moscow State University. Please get started. Maybe, as you said, by 2040 we will have Su-57.

This is why I told you its experimental.
It's operational, not experimental.
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
196
128
Surat
Some useful concepts of radar :

1. Searching Radar -- Search radar - AMS Glossary

2. Tracking Radar -- Tracking radar - AMS Glossary

Most of modern radars have Track while Scan capability.
You failed to answer my question.
The L band Swordfish will perform early warning tasks, so its main objective is to detect a threat, like a ballistic missile.

If the threat is real, then the radar starts tracking it.

If the radar decides the threat is dangerous, then another S or X band will start tracking the missile. And the data from the S/X band radar will then generate fire control data, which is then downloaded into missiles. And then the missiles are launched. After launch, the X/S band will continue providing mid-course updates, and also provide fire control to any follow-on missiles.

In case the X/S band radar is jammed or fails, then the Swordfish will provide fire control, but this data is not going to be as accurate as the data from X/S band radar.
This means it is fire control radar.
 

screambowl

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,332
1,085
switzerland
Okay, only you can help India get ToT on Su-57 by investing in Moscow State University. Please get started. Maybe, as you said, by 2040 we will have Su-57.
I am only telling you how it happens. India doesn't have any such direction as for now. The result is in front of you Chinese are ahead.
 

screambowl

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,332
1,085
switzerland
None of that happens in the areas we are talking about.
And I would be better off saying both research and procurement takes almost same time in India :p. What comes after 5 years you need it after 5 years.

This is not a good attitude that one minister is running to Moscow, calls being made to France. Come on!

Even if you get Rafales in coming 5 months, what extra capability in defence manufacturing are you adding? You think China will not add to it's inventory?

I hope whatever has happened will open eyes of all and more funds are being given for AMCA is they are capable of delivering it in the next 15 years. I don't think they have to worry about the engine, Kaveri can do well.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
And I would be better off saying both research and procurement takes almost same time in India :p. What comes after 5 years you need it after 5 years.

This is not a good attitude that one minister is running to Moscow, calls being made to France. Come on!

Even if you get Rafales in coming 5 months, what extra capability in defence manufacturing are you adding? You think China will not add to it's inventory?

I hope whatever has happened will open eyes of all and more funds are being given for AMCA is they are capable of delivering it in the next 15 years. I don't think they have to worry about the engine, Kaveri can do well.
We compensate our lack of money for R&D with imports from other countries that spend more on R&D. And this has given us significant amounts of superiority over China even though the Chinese spend more on R&D than we do.

As we get richer, we will be adding to our own kitty of weapons with indigenous R&D, which has begun as of this decade in significant amounts and will continue rising.

And it's working out.

Even if you get Rafales in coming 5 months, what extra capability in defence manufacturing are you adding? You think China will not add to it's inventory?
The current crop of Rafales don't add anything to manufacturing because they are not meant to. Their job is to only kill enemies.

And it doesn't matter how much China adds to its inventory as long as we create a minimum response to it. For example, it doesn't matter if China has 200 or 500 J-20s as long as we have 40 Su-57s to counter that fleet. 40 is all we need at the very minimum. And due to the superiority of the Russian industry compared to China's, the Su-57s bought between 2025-30 will provide India assured security until 2040. The same as what the current crop of Rafales are expected to provide all the way until 2030. In the meantime, we build up our own industry to supply what we need for conditions that may become prevalent after 2040.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chain Smoker

screambowl

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,332
1,085
switzerland
And this has given us significant amounts of superiority over China even though the Chinese spend more on R&D than we do
Well that time will tell, hope you are correct.
And it doesn't matter how much China adds to its inventory as long as we create a minimum response to it. For example, it doesn't matter if China has 200 or 500 J-20s as long as we have 40 Su-57s to counter that fleet.
Issue is not about 500 j 20. Issue is about you don't have 40 Su 57s but they will have 500 chengdu j 20 with in a decade if they want and wth better radar system which actually has 1800+ T/R modules and better transmission loss management which gives it's radar better outreach and beam forming, Rumors says it has got 2000T/R modules too. Plus the copycats have stolen the design of EODAS from F35.

The only and major weak point is it's indigenous ws 15 engine as you know. They are struggling to make one and depending on AL31. This is the right time if India increases the momentum of it's AMCA!
I don't understand why can't they just simply test a proto type with Kaveri. Whats taking so long???
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
Well that time will tell, hope you are correct.


Issue is not about 500 j 20. Issue is about you don't have 40 Su 57s but they will have 500 chengdu j 20 with in a decade if they want and wth better radar system which actually has 1800+ T/R modules and better transmission loss management which gives it's radar better outreach and beam forming, Rumors says it has got 2000T/R modules too. Plus the copycats have stolen the design of EODAS from F35.

The only and major weak point is it's indigenous ws 15 engine as you know. They are struggling to makeone and depending on AL31. This is the right time if India increases the momentum of it's AMCA!
Don't worry about tech specs, the Russians are ahead.

And a plan to buy Su-57s is still active, with a minimum of 60+. Plus China's belligerence in Ladakh has likely put Russia also on the backfoot, since they have a lot of borders disputes with China.

The F-35's EODAS is outdated. The Litening G4 alone is two generations ahead of the EODAS.

I don't understand why can't they just simply test a proto type with Kaveri. Whats taking so long???
Kaveri can't power AMCA the way it is today. A new engine program is planned. F414 will be the interim engine.

They are currently deciding on which private company will be involved in the R&D phase.