Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option - Their M-2000s are up for sale

[randomradio]

Partially disagree, Labour costs only represent a small portion of operational costs. While it's true that Labour costs are significantly cheaper in the Asian circle, you'd be surprised at the real contribution of labour costs in total operational costs of an aircraft. Most part of operational costs of an aircraft is spent on Fuel, Maintenance, Weapons, Training and Infrastructure. While some of these factors might be common regardless of the aircraft type, maintenance take up a significant chunk from your operational costs. With aircraft coming in from various countries, you'd be shocked at the value of our existing inventory and yearly spare movements.

To bring out a simple basic example, a regular Philips screw you find in domestic market might be cheaper than 10 Rs, but the same dimension screw being suitable for aviation standard will cost upward of 200-300 Rs. As the aircraft gets older, the amount of wear tear on mechanical spares and structural corrosion/damage increases. This significantly shoots up your maintenance costs and therefore your operational costs. Adding to the misery is the fact that western/eastern manufacturers don't even use common standard of screw or fasteners.

So yes, every different aircraft type puts a dent on your revenue budget, we however don't have a solution for this only because we acknowledge our difficulty in procuring new aircraft. But this however doest mean that we are doing good with a zoo of aircraft type. We have this zoo because we always sleep on our procurement plan and end up taking hasty decisions when pushed to the corner by our neighbours. Like how we inducted 3 aircraft type to counter PAF F16 procurement, to build up numbers faster. And we'd do it again as long as the politicians have a role to play in our procurements.

Good Day!

Most flight hour calculations do not consider manpower costs.

But if you want to look at the true impact of salaries and pensions on aircraft, you just have to look up the salaries of the overall defence budget.

Salaries and other manpower related costs are no. 2 in the rankings there. So you can imagine how much of an impact it creates there.

 

[Sathya]

Can't we induct as it is ?

Except may be few additional Indian systems

 

[Amarante]

Software Problems Delay US F-16 Deliveries, Taiwan Says

It's the latest delay as manufacturers have turned their attention to Ukraine

www.voanews.com

 

[Bon Plan]

Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option
Taiwan will also retire its ageing Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft due to high maintenance costs and to make room in the budget for new F-16s. Of the sixty fighters France sold Taiwan in the 1990s, fifty-six remain operational. “We would like to resale the Mirage fighters to a third country,” said one source.

The 56 jets are all 2000-5 models, and are just 20 years old with relatively fewer flight hours completed. This is a very good source of 2nd hand jets for the IAF in case they are interested.

Five years later, the M2000 are always on duty...

They complain that the maintenance cost of the M-2000 is 1.5 times more than the F-16 and that the M-2000 is more fuel hungry.

The maintenance issues came from a non respect of the Dassault cleaning specifications. It caused rust problems, hard to solve.

 

[randomradio]

Five years later, the M2000 are always on duty...

The maintenance issues came from a non respect of the Dassault cleaning specifications. It caused rust problems, hard to solve.

The Taiwanese need the jets more than we do.

Have the rust issues been resolved?

Also, the problems they have listed is different:

Missing Mirage jet puts spotlight back on Taiwan’s ageing squadron

Island struggling to maintain more expensive French aircraft amid budget squeeze, observers say

www.scmp.com

Earlier, Andrei Chang, editor-in-chief of the Canada-based Kanwa Asian Defence, cited a Taiwanese air force source as saying that the cost of Mirage spare parts was on average at least double that for the F-16.

And Mirage 2000-5 fighters used up to 1.5 times as much fuel as F-16s, he said.

Makes sense, French stuff is more expensive. And the jet's gone 25 years without major upgrades already, in a marine environment. Crashes in India and Taiwan have not helped matters either.

Anyway, they are deciding what to do with the jet, and based on this article, it appears the French are causing problems due to Chinese pressure.

Taiwan weighs options for ageing fleet of Mirage 2000 fighter jets

Defence Minister Chiu Kuo-cheng says they still perform well but ‘over time’ there will be an issue.

www.scmp.com

@Picdelamirand-oil

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

These are 1992 aircraft, so of course they're old and their weapons system is outdated. It's more or less the same situation as yours, and you too found the upgrade expensive. The problem is that if you make major modifications to make the weapon system compatible with today's threats on aircraft designed for a 30-year operational life that are already 31 years old, you also have to make structural improvements to extend the operational life, otherwise the modifications are not cost-effective. And all this is expensive.

What's more, the Tawainese aren't exactly friendly: under the influence of the US, they criticise us a lot, and have taken us to court, which from our point of view are unjustified, over contracts for the navy and for these Mirage 2000s.

Although we had made efforts for them:

• officially, these Mirages were only supposed to have defensive capabilities.
• I myself took part in the development of a mission preparation system for them where it was clear that they had offensive capabilities....

We find that they lacked reconnaissance, so they're getting by with the USA.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The Taiwanese need the jets more than we do.

Have the rust issues been resolved?

Mirage maintenance was unsatisfactory in Taiwan, because their air force applied the same procedures to Mirages as to F-16s: instead of following Dassault's recommendations, they followed those of Lockheed.
For example, there were systems on the Mirage that were not designed to be dismantled, and which they regularly dismantled.
We instructed them to stop poorly maintaining their aircraft, and things have gone much better since then.

 

[LX1111]

I myself took part in the development of a mission preparation system for them where it was clear that they had offensive capabilities.

Are you an engineer from Dassault?
To explain this from another perspective, for a long time there was a political faction in the Taiwan Air Force called the Mirage faction，
Many of the pilots were promoted with the introduction of Mirage 2000，They gradually occupied many leadership positions in Taiwan's Air Force，One of the most famous representatives is Shen Yiming, chief of staff of Taiwan's Air Force，But Shen Yiming died in a plane crash, and the Mirage faction gradually lost power, Mirage 2000 is also gradually ignored

 

[randomradio]

These are 1992 aircraft, so of course they're old and their weapons system is outdated. It's more or less the same situation as yours, and you too found the upgrade expensive. The problem is that if you make major modifications to make the weapon system compatible with today's threats on aircraft designed for a 30-year operational life that are already 31 years old, you also have to make structural improvements to extend the operational life, otherwise the modifications are not cost-effective. And all this is expensive.

What's more, the Tawainese aren't exactly friendly: under the influence of the US, they criticise us a lot, and have taken us to court, which from our point of view are unjustified, over contracts for the navy and for these Mirage 2000s.

Although we had made efforts for them:

• officially, these Mirages were only supposed to have defensive capabilities.
• I myself took part in the development of a mission preparation system for them where it was clear that they had offensive capabilities....

We find that they lacked reconnaissance, so they're getting by with the USA.

So US pressure on Taiwan and Chinese pressure on the French. Bad combination.

What do you think is the potential future for the M2000 in Taiwan then? Do you think they will give it up in 2026 or so?

 

[randomradio]

Are you an engineer from Dassault?
To explain this from another perspective, for a long time there was a political faction in the Taiwan Air Force called the Mirage faction，
Many of the pilots were promoted with the introduction of Mirage 2000，They gradually occupied many leadership positions in Taiwan's Air Force，One of the most famous representatives is Shen Yiming, chief of staff of Taiwan's Air Force，But Shen Yiming died in a plane crash, and the Mirage faction gradually lost power, Mirage 2000 is also gradually ignored

He's run space programs, nuclear programs, anti-submarine programs and missile programs in the French defence industry. Of course, Dassault too.

There's always a this-faction or that-faction in any air force. Like the Fighter Mafia in the USAF. In India we have one group that supports Russian fighters, one for French and a new one for indigenous designs. The question is how powerful are the French supporters in Taiwan. Could change things, 'cause the French have unique weapons the Chinese may not have counters against.

 

[LX1111]

He's run space programs, nuclear programs, anti-submarine programs and missile programs in the French defence industry. Of course, Dassault too

Is there a French Defense Minister in this forum?

There's always a this-faction or that-faction in any air force. Like the Fighter Mafia in the USAF. In India we have one group that supports Russian fighters, one for French and a new one for indigenous designs. The question is how powerful are the French supporters in Taiwan. Could change things, 'cause the French have unique weapons the Chinese may not have counters against

What weapons does France have that China is difficult to counter
Don't tell me it's Rafale。
Only God knows what the IAF wants, this is a place full of bureaucracy and corruption, India will not have to think about France and Russia in the future, The only thing India can buy in the future is tejas

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

So US pressure on Taiwan and Chinese pressure on the French. Bad combination.

What do you think is the potential future for the M2000 in Taiwan then? Do you think they will give it up in 2026 or so?

If they find the upgrade too expensive and don't buy it, they'll have to withdraw the Mirage from service soon, otherwise they'll be able to make them last as long as India. If I were in their shoes, I'd extend them, because they're likely to need them in the short term. We saw in Ukraine that even old weapons were appreciated in a high-intensity conflict, and if we gave them to the Ukrainians, they'd be very happy, which proves that they can be useful.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Is there a French Defense Minister in this forum?

There is a former adviser to an Indian defence minister in this Forum.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

What weapons does France have that China is difficult to counter

M51s

 

[Optimist]

He's run space programs, nuclear programs, anti-submarine programs and missile programs in the French defence industry. Of course, Dassault too.

You have seemed to have added some things. He did work for Dassault. He was bold enough to post his resume. Which is why I find his deceitful ways abhorrent.

 

[randomradio]

What weapons does France have that China is difficult to counter
Don't tell me it's Rafale。

No. Weapons, electronic warfare, communications, infantry systems and so on.

Take the Mirage alone, it will soon have the MICA NG, new Hammers, new subsonic and hypersonic cruise missiles. Fighting the Mirage requires a different training regimen compared to the F-16 or F-35. So if PLAAF is ready to fight the F-16, but has not trained enough to deal with the Mirage, then the Mirage will get more kills.

Only God knows what the IAF wants, this is a place full of bureaucracy and corruption, India will not have to think about France and Russia in the future, The only thing India can buy in the future is tejas

I am referring to Taiwan.

 

[randomradio]

If they find the upgrade too expensive and don't buy it, they'll have to withdraw the Mirage from service soon, otherwise they'll be able to make them last as long as India. If I were in their shoes, I'd extend them, because they're likely to need them in the short term. We saw in Ukraine that even old weapons were appreciated in a high-intensity conflict, and if we gave them to the Ukrainians, they'd be very happy, which proves that they can be useful.

As far as I've heard, they have flown less than India, so they may be able to avoid upgrading some things, like airframe. An old Mirage in India today is almost 40 years old, a Taiwanese model is the 05 version inducted in 1997, the entire fleet is just 25-26 years old. An electronics upgrade alone should suffice.

 

[randomradio]

You have seemed to have added some things. He did work for Dassault. He was bold enough to post his resume. Which is why I find his deceitful ways abhorrent.

Not really. I have in fact skipped out on a fair bit.

 

[Bon Plan]

Have the rust issues been resolved?

sure, since a while. It came from a bad cleaning procedure used by Taiwanese ground technicians.

 

[Amarante]

(opex360, aug.02)

Taiwan plans to extend the service life of some of its Mirage 2000-5s​

In November 2022, during the "Tien Lung" (Sky Dragon) exercise organised by the Republic of China Air Force (RoCAF), four F-16 fighter-bombers were to simulate an attack on the island, while four Mirage 2000-5s were supposed to prevent them. The result of this confrontation was reported by the NOWnews news portal earlier this year. And it emerged that the French-designed aircraft clearly had the upper hand in this confrontation.​

​

Indeed, Lieutenant-Colonel Zhuang Weibo of the 2nd Tactical Fighter Wing, based in Hsinchu, said that the "score" was 4-1 in favour of the Mirage 2000-5. However, the conditions under which this air combat simulation took place were not specified. But it is interesting to note that the role of attacker was entrusted by the Taiwanese staff to F-16s.​

​

Whatever the case, and with the constant pressure exerted by the air component of the People's Liberation Army [PLA], Taiwan's combat aircraft are being put to the test... which means that their potential is diminishing by the day. And one of Taipei's concerns is their maintenance in operational condition [MCO], the costs of which are constantly rising, particularly for the oldest aircraft. At the same time, deliveries of the 66 F-16 'Vipers' ordered from the United States are running behind schedule, which is another source of concern...​

​

One of the options being considered by Taipei is to extend the service life of some of the 54 Mirage 2000-5s still in service out of the 60 acquired at the end of the 1990s for 20 billion francs at the time.​

​

In a press release issued on 31 July, the Taiwanese Air Force General Staff said it wanted "to know whether the service life of a certain number of Mirage 2000s can be extended for both strategic and risk coverage reasons", Focus Taiwan reported.​

​

A budget of 4.7 million dollars will be made available for this purpose and the assessment of the condition of these aircraft, in particular 9 two-seaters, should be entrusted to Dassault Aviation. The assessment is due to be completed in 2026, which suggests, given this timeframe, that modernisation of these few Mirage 2000s is not out of the question. However, such a programme would inevitably give rise to diplomatic complications, as the People's Republic of China is always very touchy when it comes to arms contracts with Taiwan.​

​

According to the local press, the possibility of keeping the Mirage 2000-5B in service for a further twenty years would give the Taiwanese air force greater flexibility, as these aircraft can be used both for combat missions and to train its new pilots. What's more, in addition to their intrinsic performance [in particular their rate of climb] and armament [MICA and Magic II missiles], these aircraft can be fitted with the ASTAC electronic intelligence pod, supplied by Thales.​

​

In the meantime, the Mirage 2000 remains a popular fighter aircraft. In 2021, the Indian Air Force has said that it wants to keep its Mirage 2000s as long as possible [or even buy second-hand ones], while Indonesia recently took over those belonging to the Emir of Qatar's Air Force. Finally, Greece, Morocco and Egypt are said to be interested in the 60 Mirage 2000-9s deployed by the United Arab Emirates. In France, the Armée de l'Air & de l'Espace [AAE] will dispose of its last Mirage 2000-5s in 2028./deepl​