Taiwan Gives Up On F-35, Turns to F-16V Option - Their M-2000s are up for sale

randomradio said:
MCA = LCA Mk2. It's now an MMRCA.

Anyway, we are not going to get the M-2000s before Taiwan gets their new F-16s. We will have to wait a few years, by which time the MCA's avionics will be ready. So we buy the M-2000s now, start receiving them by 2023 or so, and then upgrade them all starting in 2027 or so, maybe even 2030.

As for Mk1A, the configuration was finalised a year ago. Even the contract was ready for signature in July. The high price is why it's fallen into controversy.
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Getting them after 2023, when all 36 Rafales
Would be in place makes no sense

In 2019 , we will see the 114 jet order finalised

And if Mk 1 A comes out really well and in time, then this Second hand Mirage deal
Will become absurd , because it will still cost us 50 / 60 million to bring it up to our
Mirage UPG

randomradio said:
MKI is in a different class. Anyway, the link you posted killed this option for us.


If Taiwan plans to upgrade the M-2000s, then they will not sell the jets. But I still hope there is a chance.
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Second hand MiG 29s are far cheaper
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
Getting them after 2023, when all 36 Rafales
Would be in place makes no sense

In 2019 , we will see the 114 jet order finalised
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Even with 6 LCA Mk1A and 4 Rafale squadrons, we will still be short of 7 squadrons. And by 2030, we will lose 5 more squadrons, 2 Jags and 3 Mig-29s. So there will be a gap of 12 squadrons. Neither the MCA nor MMRCA can deliver a combined 12 squadrons by 2030 even without counting any potential delays. And this is without counting attrition either. Nor does it count the production capacity the IN may take up because even they want 150 new fighter jets by 2032.

In fact, without production or delivery of a third type of jet, like PAK FA or MSA, the IAF is expected to achieve 42 squadrons only after 2035. MMRCA production for 114 jets alone is expected to take 12 years after contract is signed. Without any delays, the MCA will take 6 years to deliver all 114 jets from 2027.

And none of this considers exports either.

And if Mk 1 A comes out really well and in time, then this Second hand Mirage deal
Will become absurd , because it will still cost us 50 / 60 million to bring it up to our
Mirage UPG
Click to expand...

The idea is to have parallel deliveries, and the M-2000 will still be better than the Mk1A in strike missions.

Second hand MiG 29s are far cheaper
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Actually, no. The cost of operating it is high. Plus there is an option for 21 jets. And the life of the jet is only until 2030.
 
randomradio said:
Even with 6 LCA Mk1A and 4 Rafale squadrons, we will still be short of 7 squadrons. And by 2030, we will lose 5 more squadrons, 2 Jags and 3 Mig-29s. So there will be a gap of 12 squadrons. Neither the MCA nor MMRCA can deliver a combined 12 squadrons by 2030 even without counting any potential delays. And this is without counting attrition either. Nor does it count the production capacity the IN may take up because even they want 150 new fighter jets by 2032.

In fact, without production or delivery of a third type of jet, like PAK FA or MSA, the IAF is expected to achieve 42 squadrons only after 2035. MMRCA production for 114 jets alone is expected to take 12 years after contract is signed. Without any delays, the MCA will take 6 years to deliver all 114 jets from 2027.

And none of this considers exports either.



The idea is to have parallel deliveries, and the M-2000 will still be better than the Mk1A in strike missions.



Actually, no. The cost of operating it is high. Plus there is an option for 21 jets. And the life of the jet is only until 2030.
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Let us wait and watch
 
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randomradio said:
Even with 6 LCA Mk1A and 4 Rafale squadrons, we will still be short of 7 squadrons. And by 2030, we will lose 5 more squadrons, 2 Jags and 3 Mig-29s. So there will be a gap of 12 squadrons. Neither the MCA nor MMRCA can deliver a combined 12 squadrons by 2030 even without counting any potential delays. And this is without counting attrition either. Nor does it count the production capacity the IN may take up because even they want 150 new fighter jets by 2032.

In fact, without production or delivery of a third type of jet, like PAK FA or MSA, the IAF is expected to achieve 42 squadrons only after 2035. MMRCA production for 114 jets alone is expected to take 12 years after contract is signed. Without any delays, the MCA will take 6 years to deliver all 114 jets from 2027.

And none of this considers exports either.



The idea is to have parallel deliveries, and the M-2000 will still be better than the Mk1A in strike missions.



Actually, no. The cost of operating it is high. Plus there is an option for 21 jets. And the life of the jet is only until 2030.
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There was an interview of Eric Trappier
Where he said 2 Rafales are equal to Six Mirage 2000

There fore there is no need to waste money
On Mirage

And PAK FA project will also get revived in next two years
 
Sathya said:
am not sure how much india can update on their own from the previous mirage up-gradation contract .

is it possible to do the work fully by India ?
@R!cK
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We popped approx. $40 M per jet for the Vajra upgrade for 51 aircraft. This is mainly executed by HAL through kits supplied by DA/Thales. Unlike the Jaguar, which was manufactured in India, we have no amount of production support/technology for Mirage 2000 in India. Until Mirage continues to be in French service, don't expect DA to make us self sufficient to upgrade Mirage 2000 our way. This is business afterall, and a very expensive one if you look at the last upgrade deal cost. Upgrading the aircraft is just not about simple plug and play of equipments, it involves tests and functional checks of countless other instruments that require feedback from replaced units. These things are not possible without OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) support, definitely not for Mirage-2000/Rafale with the way we have purchased them so far.

Regarding the whole idea of this purchase happening, maybe we need to be aware that IAF has still not placed orders for the 2 Trainer aircraft from French Air Force that were supposed to replace the 2 units we lost after inking the upgrade deal. These units were expected to cost us about $ 2M, yet we haven't ordered them due to the slow pace of upgradation project by HAL. It is highly unlikely for us to shell out more money on buying/upgrading more Mirage 2000 aircraft, Mig-29 seems possible due to the cheaper acquistion/upgrade costs.

Good Day!
 
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Shajida Khan said:
Folks It seems USA is experimenting on converting its 'old' F-16s into some kind of drones.

The Air Force Turned a F-16 Fighter into a Drone

Wonder if we could do the same. We will have quite a few Mig-21s and Mig-27s retiring. An AWACS with its own squadron of drones, protecting it.
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It's way ahead in the distant future, at least for us.

1. We are yet to display any amount of expertise in advanced drone design/manufacture.

2. Most Mig aircraft we are retiring from service have reached end of their Total Technical Life. Which puts their airframe unsuitable for further service.

3. We tried a similar strategy although more modest than combat purpose, by teaming up with Israel to convert our Chetaks to unmanned units to serve IN. This project however remains shelved after completing preliminary feasibility studies.

We really need to go a long way from a Rustom II/Tapas on the test field and AURA on the drawing board to enter the realm of unmanned/optionally-manned platform design/manufacture/conversion.

Good Day!
 
R!cK said:
We popped approx. $40 M per jet for the Vajra upgrade for 51 aircraft. This is mainly executed by HAL through kits supplied by DA/Thales. Unlike the Jaguar, which was manufactured in India, we have no amount of production support/technology for Mirage 2000 in India. Until Mirage continues to be in French service, don't expect DA to make us self sufficient to upgrade Mirage 2000 our way. This is business afterall, and a very expensive one if you look at the last upgrade deal cost. Upgrading the aircraft is just not about simple plug and play of equipments, it involves tests and functional checks of countless other instruments that require feedback from replaced units. These things are not possible without OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) support, definitely not for Mirage-2000/Rafale with the way we have purchased them so far.

Regarding the whole idea of this purchase happening, maybe we need to be aware that IAF has still not placed orders for the 2 Trainer aircraft from French Air Force that were supposed to replace the 2 units we lost after inking the upgrade deal. These units were expected to cost us about $ 2M, yet we haven't ordered them due to the slow pace of upgradation project by HAL. It is highly unlikely for us to shell out more money on buying/upgrading more Mirage 2000 aircraft, Mig-29 seems possible due to the cheaper acquistion/upgrade costs.

Good Day!
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If we really want to ruffle some feather, IAF could buy small qty like 2 sqdns F16 C/D and F/A 50 for DACT training. Will simulate two main aggressor units against IAF.
 
Milspec said:
If we really want to ruffle some feather, IAF could buy small qty like 2 sqdns F16 C/D and F/A 50 for DACT training. Will simulate two main aggressor units against IAF.
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Foreigners call IAF a "Zoo " because of the
Huge variety of planes

Don't ask for a link because this sentence was in an article about evolving trends in combat aviation
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
Foreigners call IAF a "Zoo " because of the
Huge variety of planes

Don't ask for a link because this sentence was in an article about evolving trends in combat aviation
Click to expand...
No other "foreign" country faces the threats India does.
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
Foreigners call IAF a "Zoo " because of the
Huge variety of planes

Don't ask for a link because this sentence was in an article about evolving trends in combat aviation
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They are just jealous. :p

What we spend more money on is not the same as what they spend more money on. We can afford more types than the richer nations can.
 
Paro said:
how?
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For us, labour is cheaper. For rich countries, not so.

Once we hit 80-90 jets, there are no real savings to be made whether we buy the same jet or a new jet. And since our labour is cheap, we can afford to train crews on two sets of aircraft. Otoh, a huge chunk of the operational budget in rich countries goes into paying salaries.
 
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randomradio said:
For us, labour is cheaper. For rich countries, not so.

Once we hit 80-90 jets, there are no real savings to be made whether we buy the same jet or a new jet. And since our labour is cheap, we can afford to train crews on two sets of aircraft. Otoh, a huge chunk of the operational budget in rich countries goes into paying salaries.
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Ideally speaking
We need only four types of planes

Su 30 , Rafale , PAKFA , and the LCA MK 2

But our Five legacy fighters ie
MiG 21 ,MiG 27 ,MiG 29 , Jaguar and Mirage 2000 are important for making up the Numbers
 
Sathya said:
If it's possible to buy & update to indian specification s at a minimal cost then it's worth.

If it's going to take 50-60 million$ / aircraft
Better to buy Rafale itself.
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Are you sure?
Those M2000 are 2nd hand planes. Operated in a country where the wheter is wet. On duty for more than 20 years...
A single Rafale can do the job of 2 to 3 M2000.
No Spectra like system in a M2000. No OSF. No Meteor capacity.

So a 2nd hand 50-60 $million M2000 versus a 95 $ million brand new Rafale : The good deal is clear.
 
randomradio said:
MKI is in a different class. Anyway, the link you posted killed this option for us.

If Taiwan plans to upgrade the M-2000s, then they will not sell the jets. But I still hope there is a chance.
Click to expand...
You are right.
It would be politically difficult for Taiwan to purchase new jets. US will remain their only supplier, and the F35 refusal is a sign.
They will kept the M2000 fleet the longest possible.
 
randomradio said:
For us, labour is cheaper. For rich countries, not so.

Once we hit 80-90 jets, there are no real savings to be made whether we buy the same jet or a new jet. And since our labour is cheap, we can afford to train crews on two sets of aircraft. Otoh, a huge chunk of the operational budget in rich countries goes into paying salaries.
Click to expand...

Partially disagree, Labour costs only represent a small portion of operational costs. While it's true that Labour costs are significantly cheaper in the Asian circle, you'd be surprised at the real contribution of labour costs in total operational costs of an aircraft. Most part of operational costs of an aircraft is spent on Fuel, Maintenance, Weapons, Training and Infrastructure. While some of these factors might be common regardless of the aircraft type, maintenance take up a significant chunk from your operational costs. With aircraft coming in from various countries, you'd be shocked at the value of our existing inventory and yearly spare movements.

To bring out a simple basic example, a regular Philips screw you find in domestic market might be cheaper than 10 Rs, but the same dimension screw being suitable for aviation standard will cost upward of 200-300 Rs. As the aircraft gets older, the amount of wear tear on mechanical spares and structural corrosion/damage increases. This significantly shoots up your maintenance costs and therefore your operational costs. Adding to the misery is the fact that western/eastern manufacturers don't even use common standard of screw or fasteners.

So yes, every different aircraft type puts a dent on your revenue budget, we however don't have a solution for this only because we acknowledge our difficulty in procuring new aircraft. But this however doest mean that we are doing good with a zoo of aircraft type. We have this zoo because we always sleep on our procurement plan and end up taking hasty decisions when pushed to the corner by our neighbours. Like how we inducted 3 aircraft type to counter PAF F16 procurement, to build up numbers faster. And we'd do it again as long as the politicians have a role to play in our procurements.

Good Day!
 
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