Zorawar: Light tank for Indian army

If indigenous system is already available from drdo/l&t then what is the need of even considering foreign system.

Rest Every country give full commitment to their indigenous systems only here these dalal generals are running the shit show so that they can get commission.

Yeah, it's unclear why there are 2 different tanks. I guess the requirements for both types are different.

Anyway, you are overestimating the Indian defence industry. The industry still needs until 2030 for it to mature. Right now, most of their products are something only the Indian forces will clear for use after extremely extensive trials. They cannot yet compete with more seasoned international companies. For example, when an Indian company says this or that is the most tested, what they are actually saying is their product has failed so many times that it had to be tested multiple times for clearance.

And no, generals earn more money from local companies and indigenous equipment. Foreign companies don't bribe as much as you think. And it's DPSUs that do the most corruption, hence one of the reasons for the lack of trust in them by the forces. Most of the stealing happens outside procurement, mostly maintenance and logistics.
 
This turret is the best available in the market.


You want to wait for engine and turret maturity by DRDO ?

If the plan is to buy just 45-50 tanks, then it makes sense to use proven foreign systems.

Even the remaining 300-350 tanks is insufficient for a full R&D effort, especially when the IA needs those tanks quickly.
 
If you are talking about rustam , archer etc those are DRDO project . HAL is working on some drone projects with a private company named new space and those ll come out with in few years . Their swarm drone was delivered recently . And tanks are not obsolete just because there are videos of them getting blown . People always see what was done to the tank , armoured vehicle , not what tank and armoured vehicle did . Regarding loiter munition , swarm drones india has many options available for LAC . Regarding male/hale drone , read about project cheetah . For hale drone , we are buying American drone .
The problem is these are just science projects and we have been hearing about them since .... I do not know forever. And there is NOT ONE UCAV among them. Rustoms are UAV. The only real UCAV is DRDO Ghatak which will take.... forever to materialize. All I ask for is a TB2 like platform available right now. DRDO has none. It has a lot of science projects though.

And there is not much for the tank to do in Despsang plains. If cheap drones find them, they are history. Instead of bringing tanks, get some drones up there.
 
Yeah, it's unclear why there are 2 different tanks. I guess the requirements for both types are different.

Anyway, you are overestimating the Indian defence industry. The industry still needs until 2030 for it to mature. Right now, most of their products are something only the Indian forces will clear for use after extremely extensive trials. They cannot yet compete with more seasoned international companies. For example, when an Indian company says this or that is the most tested, what they are actually saying is their product has failed so many times that it had to be tested multiple times for clearance.

And no, generals earn more money from local companies and indigenous equipment. Foreign companies don't bribe as much as you think. And it's DPSUs that do the most corruption, hence one of the reasons for the lack of trust in them by the forces. Most of the stealing happens outside procurement, mostly maintenance and logistics.
Seems like you are unaware of chandigarh lobby. Modus operandi is always same give piecemeal orders to indigenous systems and then go for foreign maal, that's not how we are going to achieve aatmnirbharta.
 
Seems like you are unaware of chandigarh lobby. Modus operandi is always same give piecemeal orders to indigenous systems and then go for foreign maal, that's not how we are going to achieve aatmnirbharta.

It's the opposite actually. And it's the correct way to do things. Most of the orders will come via indigenous means once the technologies are ready, in the meantime, piecemeal import orders are placed as stopgap.

We generally only import proven systems where TOEs and SOPs are ready, most of the times it's already operational and sometimes even combat proven. Whereas Indian systems don't even have the most basic things ready and IA has to do all the hard work. The IA needs at least 5 years of field work with new equipment before placing large orders. Pretty much everything the industry has created is new and requires a lot of limited production and operational testing first.
 
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I was explaining the concept of a light tank, not the Zorawar itself.

Anything which cannot take the 1st hit from a tank and have atleast some chances of survival is not a tank. It's an Infantry Fighting Vehicle.

Start calling it IFV , i will say it's one of the best possible platforms.
It's capability is not 1% more than what the Stryker 105mm system can do.
 
L&T gets order to build prototype of light tank


By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 15th April 23

With the Indian Army on a major drive to equip itself adequately on the Sino-Indian border, the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and private sector firm, Larsen & Toubro (L&T) have joined hands to develop an indigenous light tank that is optimised for the extreme cold and high altitude of Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.



Having co-designed an indigenous, 25-tonne, light tank, the DRDO has placed a development order on L&T to build the first prototype, say Army sources.



Meanwhile, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) – the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD’s) apex body for capital purchases – has granted an Acceptance of Necessity (AoN), or in-principle agreement, for seven light tank regiments, each equipped with 45 tanks.



The AoN requires L&T – the MoD’s development partner – to build one regiment of light tanks, while the MoD acquires the other six regiments under the “Make” procedure.



The light tank will have a hull, co-developed by DRDO and L&T, that will house an 800 horsepower (HP) engine optimised for high altitudes. The engine will be provided by German firm MTU, which is a subsidiary of Rolls-Royce.



Mounted on this hull will be a 105-millimetre gun turret, procured ready-built from Belgian firm, John Cockerill.



It is intended to marry the DRDO’s expertise in tank design, created while developing the Arjun tank, with the heavy engineering capability of L&T, which is already building the K-9 Vajra self-propelled artillery gun system for the army.



The indigenous light tank was initially planned to be built on the chassis of the K-9 Vajra. This, however, was ruled out because the army placed a weight limit of 25 tonnes on the light tank, while the Vajra’s heavy chassis would take its weight to at least 34-35 tonnes.



The armoured challenge from the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in Ladakh is centred on China’s new light tank, the agile and versatile ZTQ 105 – also known as the Type 15 –developed by China’s North Industries Group Corporation (NORINCO) and unveiled during the Zhuhai Air Show in 2016.



The ZTQ 105 has a 105-mm rifled gun that can destroy enemy tanks at ranges of two-to-three kilometres (km). It also fires anti-tank guided missiles to knock out tanks at ranges of five km.



The Indian Army currently uses Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks on the Sino-Indian border. But these hefty, 42-45-tonne main battle tanks are designed for the plains. Movement is difficult for them on steep and narrow mountain roads.



There are also limitations on how much their heavy 120-mm guns can be depressed or elevated, sometimes preventing them from engaging targets on hilltops or in valleys. That is why the Indian Army took only small numbers of T-72 and T-90 tanks into Ladakh to counter the Chinese intrusions in 2020, and used them only sparingly.



In contrast, the Indian Army has a formidable combat tradition of using light tanks in the mountains. In 1944, it used Stuart and Sherman tanks in the battle of Kohima. In 1948 these same tanks pushed back Pakistan forces in the Zoji-la pass. Against China in 1962, the army used light AMX-13 tanks in the battle of Gurung Hill near Pangong Tso and also deployed them in Bomdila and Dirang in Arunachal Pradesh. In the 1971 Bangladesh campaign, French AMX-13 and Soviet PT-76 tanks played a stellar role in the battle of Garibpur.



Although the K-9 Vajra artillery gun is designed for use in plains terrain, the Sino-Indian border tensions in 2020 saw a full regiment of these long-range, self-propelled guns deployed in eastern Ladakh, to increase the army’s long-range firepower.



Their successful deployment prompted the Army to consider diverting significant numbers of K-9 Vajras for use in mountainous terrain. This requires L&T to build 100 more K-9 Vajras; as well as induction of the Ordnance Factory Board’s indigenous 155 mm, 45 calibre Dhanush howitzers, and imported M777 ultralight guns.



To cater for this enhanced firepower, L&T has built 100 K-9 Vajras in Hazira, near Surat, with technology transferred from South Korean defence major Hanwha Defense. It handed over the 100th SP howitzer on February 18, 2021, ahead of its contracted date.



Now the MoD is pursuing the “Vajra repeat program”, which requires L&T to build another 100 K-9 Vajra howitzers. L&T’s proposal is currently before the MoD’s “technical evaluation committee.” The commercial bid is likely to be opened this month.
 
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Prasun K. SenguptaApril 15, 2023 at 7:24 AM
Bit by bit, details are emerging about Project Zorawar:

The tank will be powered by an imported MTU Friedrichshafen 8V 199 TE21 diesel engine that is is tuned to make 820 hp at 2,300 rpm and will be mounted in V-8, 90-degree configuration. Consequently, the gearbox too will be imported from RENK. The previous 800hp engine imported from MTU in the mid-1980s was the MB 838 CaM 500 for 600 Vijayanta MBTs. The turret will be the Cockerill 3105.
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What you basically are saying is that it's Indian equivalent to AMX 10. A big gun on a lightly protected platform.

Cannot do anything against tanks but is cheap and light and hopefully if we throw enough at China, we will exhaust their ammo???
Yes, I don't quite understand the philosophy behind the specifications of this machine. Indeed, it seems very close to the philosophy that governed the development of the AMX 10 RC. But we are in the process of replacing the AMX 10 RC with the Jaguar EBRC, which seems to me to be quite different, particularly for its gun, which favours rapid salvo firing. I wonder if we are wrong or if you are.
 
Firepower

The Jaguar carries three types of armament: a 40 CTC rapid-fire 40mm gun designed by the Franco-British consortium CTA International (CTAI)17 . This compact gun firing telescoped ammunition has a 45-degree elevated aiming capability, giving the Jaguar the ability to deal with slow moving aircraft as well as the upper floors of a building in an urban area. Its rate of fire varies from 168 rounds per minute to 1,000 rounds per minute.

Its rate of fire varies from 168 to 200 rounds per minute, with three firing modes available: single shot, three bursts and five bursts. The shells are ejected from the left side of the turret. Sixty-three shells are ready to be fired in an ammunition conveyor located in front of the machine commander. Eighty additional shells are placed against the walls of the box, five of which are directly next to the gunner, and forty shells are housed in an armoured compartment at the front of the box, outside the survival cell.

Four types of ammunition can be fired, the OFLT arrow ammunition is capable of piercing 70 mm of armoured steel at an incidence of 60 degrees at a distance of 1500 m.

The tracer explosive shells (TES) and TES CHR (CHRonometry) are capable of penetrating 20 cm of reinforced concrete at 500 m.

On the left flank is the erectile launcher in which two MMP anti-tank missiles are located, stacked and ready for use . Two other missiles are carried in a box at the rear of the body, behind the power unit.

The MMP missile allows engagement of targets up to a range of 4km, including beyond line of sight by allowing firing behind an obstacle, while having the ability to change targets in flight to deal with an unexpected threat through integrated sighting recopy.

An Arquus T3 remotely operated turret (TTOP) is mounted on the roof at the front left of the turret and is armed with a MAG 58 7.62mm machine gun. It differs from the T1 and T2 TTOPs mounted on the Griffon and Serval by its architecture incorporating a Safran PASEO panoramic sight mounted on an independent crown that can be operated by the commander and the gunner. The T3 turret therefore operates on three axes: one for the PASEO sight, the second for the machine gun and the third for the 40 mm gun.
 
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Yes, I don't quite understand the philosophy behind the specifications of this machine. Indeed, it seems very close to the philosophy that governed the development of the AMX 10 RC. But we are in the process of replacing the AMX 10 RC with the Jaguar EBRC, which seems to me to be quite different, particularly for its gun, which favours rapid salvo firing. I wonder if we are wrong or if you are.
The Zorawar is a light tank for the mountains whereas the Jaguar EBRC is designed to be an armoured reconnaissance wheeled platform cum IFV primarily for plains warfare but with secondary war fighting capabilities in an urban setting.

Franky with the going ons in Ukraine or even before Ukraine, a light tank made little sense as those who argued against the concept before Ukraine stood vindicated by the sheer number of platforms one can deploy against a tank as seen in the Ukraine war.

The IA seems to be going in for it merely because the PLA has the Type 15 . Otherwise One can't find a logical answer to the query as to why's the IA going in for a light tank for the mountains. Pre 1980's or 90's it may have made sense as the IA themselves deployed the AMX's in Ladakh against the PLA in 1962 in a brief border war we lost against the Chinese. Today it makes little sense.
 
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Anything which cannot take the 1st hit from a tank and have atleast some chances of survival is not a tank. It's an Infantry Fighting Vehicle.

Start calling it IFV , i will say it's one of the best possible platforms.
It's capability is not 1% more than what the Stryker 105mm system can do.

Stryker lacks tracks, so it's a mobile gun. But Zorawar is a proper tank. You are applying the definition of a battle tank to a light tank.
 
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Stryker lacks tracks, so it's a mobile gun. But Zorawar is a proper tank. You are applying the definition of a battle tank to a light tank.
Anything which cannot be on the front of an armour thrust into enemy territory is not a tank.

It's Tanks followed by IFVs supported by APCs/Recons/Engineers.

Can this be used against a direct thrust against a Chinese Tank/armour formation? If not, then it's an Infantry Fire Support Vehicle.
 
That's your nomenclature & may well be what it actually is but the IA sees it differently.
IA cries so much on Arjun's weight. First I am actually interested to see how they keep the weight to just 25 tons.

Because even for STANAG 5 level protection, no so called light tank weighs below 33 tons combat ready.

The only actual exception is the BMD series or Sprut tank.
 
APS is a must for survivability of this Tank. Let's hope that it proves effective against the Chinese Type-15. We also need T-72 and T-90 with uprated engines to work properly at high Himalayan altitudes.

@randomradio

Will this light Tank use the NG-ERA developed by DRDO? If yes, then its armour protection should suffice(not too sure though!).
 
IA cries so much on Arjun's weight. First I am actually interested to see how they keep the weight to just 25 tons.

Because even for STANAG 5 level protection, no so called light tank weighs below 33 tons combat ready.

The only actual exception is the BMD series or Sprut tank.

They should be targeting a total tonnage between the 25-30 Tons bandwidth + 10% optional . If we can't even have the bare minimal safety features on it against low caliber projectiles then it's just a waste of resources.

Arguably one can make a similar case against tanks & hptrs but
a.) We've a paucity of choice in the matter
b.) The cost to benefit ratio is still in favor of these platforms though that benefit ratio is coming down rapidly.

This is a universal problem. Hence, 3-4 decades into the future, we're likely to see both hptrs & tanks being mostly remotely operated as compared to any other platform / vehicle.
 
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Yes, I don't quite understand the philosophy behind the specifications of this machine. Indeed, it seems very close to the philosophy that governed the development of the AMX 10 RC. But we are in the process of replacing the AMX 10 RC with the Jaguar EBRC, which seems to me to be quite different, particularly for its gun, which favours rapid salvo firing. I wonder if we are wrong or if you are.

Similar firepower but different mobility and sensors, like hunter-killer, APS etc.

Wheeled gun requirement is different.