What according to you should be Indian Military strategy, tactics or technology build up?

[smestarz]

Every technology becomes outdated after a while. I have heard from you few times how Tejas is far behind time. And I would agree with that point. What development is happening now is more than a decade late.

We are in position to develop 5th gen tech but can we really manage that independently? You know the development on 4th Gen tech, so it COULD be that the 5th Gen tech that India develops would be ready when world is talking of 7th or 8th gen plane.

FGFA/Su-57 MKI would be very much needed (depending on the price of course) at it gives us a plane that can check the chinese aerial juggernaut. And such plane should be operational in india in next 5-7 years in india. That might give our pilot and our scientist some idea of what the 5th Gen tech are, how they work and how we go about developing further on that.

Russians or anyone for that matter wont be major partner without taking a big chunk from it, unfortunately it was due to India's lack of foresight.

Let us accept few things
1. 5th Gen planes will be very expensive to develop, produce, buy and operate.
2. Not many countries can afford more than 72 5th Gen planes. Only the top economies can
3. If the country starts a program to say develop 5th gen plane, the cost per unit is going to be much higher.,

Thus Europe now wants to join hands together to make 5th Gen plane as that might help them to produce bigger nos at cheaper price something that Eurofighter was planned to do, but unfortunately since parts had to be produced and transfered everywhere, the cost rose.

One of the other partners we can work on is Japan. They have big requirement of these planes and they can afford it to ensure that their overseas assets are protected from China, which is same situation as our. Japan has the funds and aim to develop tech, and the combined nos could well go beyond 400 units. Remember at one point of time Japan wanted to purchase F-22 at almost 250 million a plane (this is from when F-22 was 5 years operational) and they wanted almost like 50 planes at least. Japan has some experience of plane building, but better than HAL, Also our interest are same as japan.

We can use Dassault tech if available, but I think Rafale is plane of 4th Gen, and if you feel Rafale tech is good then why not produce LCA and use Rafale tech in that, this way, we can use Rafale tech and also have our own plane.

Rafale is plane of yester years and its good enough, but its not good enough that India can rely on it fully. Su-30 MKI in its super form can easily give Rafale run for its money.

We are in a position to develop 5th gen and higher technologies, but it will take time. We will get new technologies on our own through LCA Mk2 and Ghatak programs even without help from foreign companies. Other countries like Turkey and SK do not have the same level of R&D capacity as we do. Our R&D is happening across all fields, nuclear, space etc, which the others are not as involved in. So it's not comparable.

Even if FGFA happens, the Russians won't be a major partner in AMCA. Eggs in basket.

If we partner with Dassault on pretty much everything, it is a huge drawback. We can't allow it to hold a monopoly in all our programs and lose control of all the programs in case differences come up, that simply does not make sense.

The fact is Dassault will share technology only if we start a MII program with them. Once that's done, the same laboratories that will be involved in developing future technologies for Rafale will also be involved in developing technologies for AMCA also. The same labs will be involved in FGFA as well, if it happens. There is no need to give Dassault a controlling stake in everything when the benefits are few. Rafale F4 followed by F5 or NG will provide enough buffer to the IAF until AMCA becomes available.

So what Picdel is proposing is we combine these two requirements into one. But I'm saying we need to keep them separated so tomorrow France does not screw us over because we decided to test nuclear weapons, or invade some Gulf country or something radical that can change relations overnight, which is bound to happen when India's hunger for resources and influence starts overlapping with the West. AMCA will be the insurance against Dassault's monopoly. Dassault isn't a charity, they will do only what's in their interests.

The only way it will work is if both France and India have an equal stake in AMCA, like it is the case with Russia and India with respect to FGFA. Why give massive amounts of R&D funds to Dassault unless ADLA is also buying a few squadrons? Aerospace isn't about outsourcing.

My proposal:
1. Go for Rafale MII.
2. Use French help in the LCA program. As much as is possible.
3. Develop future configurations of Rafale together.
4. Have an independent AMCA program.

2 and 3 will give us all the technologies necessary to carry us to the next half of the century. We shouldn't combine 3 and 4, nor will we have the need to do so. My proposal is a more expensive proposal, but it gives us a competing jet to the Rafale.

If FGFA happens, we will automatically get a competing jet, so we can combine 3 and 4 for an overall cheaper AMCA.

 

[Dash]

• Rafale MII for IAF + IN
• Revive LCA MK2 with Safranised Kaveri and Rafale electronic suite
• Set up cooperation for Rafale MLU to take into account IAF and IN needs
• Set up cooperation with Dassault for AMCA as part of FCAS futur French system of Systems

I’m not for more Rafales apart from 50 odd more for IAF and 60 odd for IN.

The reason being it serves only one purpose to add some teeth to both forces but it doesn’t address the problem.

Reviving LCA Mk2 is the best idea but also LCA MK1a will eventually become that with the help of GE 414.

Where we need Safran is to give us the engine for AMCA and that’s where the crux of the matter lies.

I read somewhere that AMCA is getting shaped up with a dedicated team from ADA.

Our next target should be to add both LCA and AMCA to IAF and eventually develop AMCA to be a naval bourne fighter.

 

[randomradio]

Every technology becomes outdated after a while. I have heard from you few times how Tejas is far behind time. And I would agree with that point. What development is happening now is more than a decade late.

We are in position to develop 5th gen tech but can we really manage that independently? You know the development on 4th Gen tech, so it COULD be that the 5th Gen tech that India develops would be ready when world is talking of 7th or 8th gen plane.

We are developing 5th as well as 6th gen technologies. Much of that will be competing to be on LCA Mk1A alongside other foreign competitors. Rafale or Gripen MII will also feed our R&D ecosystem.

We already have two programs, one civilian and one military, to develop technologies beyond 6th gen. This is in parallel to AMCA, Ghatak etc. We will start seeing the impact in the next 5-10 years, on par with the rest of the world.

FGFA/Su-57 MKI would be very much needed (depending on the price of course) at it gives us a plane that can check the chinese aerial juggernaut. And such plane should be operational in india in next 5-7 years in india. That might give our pilot and our scientist some idea of what the 5th Gen tech are, how they work and how we go about developing further on that.

Russians or anyone for that matter wont be major partner without taking a big chunk from it, unfortunately it was due to India's lack of foresight.

We need as many as 63 PAK FA Stage 2s to make up for the loss of our Mig-29s for now. That should take care of our immediate needs.

Let us accept few things
1. 5th Gen planes will be very expensive to develop, produce, buy and operate.
2. Not many countries can afford more than 72 5th Gen planes. Only the top economies can
3. If the country starts a program to say develop 5th gen plane, the cost per unit is going to be much higher.,

Thus Europe now wants to join hands together to make 5th Gen plane as that might help them to produce bigger nos at cheaper price something that Eurofighter was planned to do, but unfortunately since parts had to be produced and transfered everywhere, the cost rose.

One of the other partners we can work on is Japan. They have big requirement of these planes and they can afford it to ensure that their overseas assets are protected from China, which is same situation as our. Japan has the funds and aim to develop tech, and the combined nos could well go beyond 400 units. Remember at one point of time Japan wanted to purchase F-22 at almost 250 million a plane (this is from when F-22 was 5 years operational) and they wanted almost like 50 planes at least. Japan has some experience of plane building, but better than HAL, Also our interest are same as japan.

By the time we get our first PAK FA, our economy will be as big as Japan or even bigger in nominal dollars, considerably rich enough to get hundreds of PAK FA.

If FGFA goes through, we plan on getting 350 jets.

We can use Dassault tech if available, but I think Rafale is plane of 4th Gen, and if you feel Rafale tech is good then why not produce LCA and use Rafale tech in that, this way, we can use Rafale tech and also have our own plane.

I have already proposed that. Point 2 in the post you quoted.

The radar, EW tender could go in favour of RBE-2AA and Spectra-lite for LCA Mk1A. That could bring in new technologies for Mk2 also.

Rafale is plane of yester years and its good enough, but its not good enough that India can rely on it fully. Su-30 MKI in its super form can easily give Rafale run for its money.

Even if the MKI matches the Rafale in all other technologies, the Rafale will still be low observable in comparison, and that plays a pretty big part in survivability. So the Super MKI will still be less survivable than the Rafale.

Basically, the Rafale F4 followed by the F5 are good enough until AMCA comes into the picture. But we shouldn't combine the two programs unless FGFA happens.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Can you tell me why LCA took so long?

I think the reasons have been well documented in all the discussions that has occured on PDF and IDF apart from other fora.

Lack of co ordination , pathetic PMC , over reach by the ADA , IAF being out of the loop initially , etc . Its only since Parrikar hammered out some kind of compromise between the principal actors that we're seeing notable coordination between them .

But then again what we have is a compromise which would result in a sub optimal FA - the Mk1a. We've no news about the Mk2. In all probability , we'd get to see it flying with the IAF and the IN too with no fixed timelines . Its only then that we'd see the AMCA occupy centre stage .

Arguably , all those technologies for a 5th generation FA that would flow from the Mk2 , the Ghatak , various iterations of the Rafale and the FGFA too would be available to us within a decade from now . Or maybe not.

Does that translate to the AMCA attaining FOC and entering series production by 2037 timeline - a full two decades after the induction of the J-20 in the PLAAF and the F-35 in the USAF ? When will our 6 th Generation FA take to the skies at this rate ? Mind you the above timelines are critical . Its all about minimising the delays in an already delayed 5th generation FA courtesy the interminable 4th generation FA - the LCA saga.

 

[randomradio]

I think the reasons have been well documented in all the discussions that has occured on PDF and Older Forum apart from other fora.

Lack of co ordination , pathetic PMC , over reach by the ADA , IAF being out of the loop initially , etc . Its only since Parrikar hammered out some kind of compromise between the principal actors that we're seeing notable coordination between them .

No, no, those are the stuff you blame for the 'technical' reason why LCA has been delayed.

LCA took so long only because of one reason. Everything else simply piled on as delays happened and are all secondary. Can you point out that one reason? If you do, you will get the reason why we have no need to outsource AMCA to Dassault.

Hint: It's only after having achieved this that the Chinese are now releasing new aircraft like they have diarrhoea.

Does that translate to the AMCA attaining FOC and entering series production by 2037 timeline - a full two decades after the induction of the J-20 in the PLAAF and the F-35 in the USAF ? When will our 6 th Generation FA take to the skies at this rate ? Mind you the above timelines are critical . Its all about minimising the delays in an already delayed 5th generation FA courtesy the interminable 4th generation FA - the LCA saga.

All that's subjective. Even with all the experience in the world, the US screwed up the F-35.

And just because the J-20 or F-35 are active now doesn't mean AMCA will be at the same level in 2037.

 

[Paro]

LCA took so long only because of one reason. Everything else simply piled on as delays happened and are all secondary. Can you point out that one reason? If you do, you will get the reason why we have no need to outsource AMCA to Dassault.

Hint: It's only after having achieved this that the Chinese are now releasing new aircraft like they have diarrhea.

We didn't have the ecosystem like labs and wind tunnels to design and test different components in the aerospace industry. Everything had to be established from the scratch.

 

[Milspec]

For starters:

As always all tactical, very little strategic input.

> Adoption of 6.5 Grendel as the primary Military Cartridge.

> 105 mm based light mobile truck mounted arty

> Technology demonstrator prototype for AMCA

> Specialized UVLM and Magazine for Ship Bourne K15 - Sagarika/Shaurya land attack vessel.

> Quad Launcher without magazines for K15- Sagarika/Shourya Missle for conventional Destroyers.

> Brahmos NG development and a Smaller UVLM for IN Corvettes to carry Brahmos NG

> NGMV with the UVLM.

>Replacement/Augement of all Prithvi variants with Prahaar and Prahaar XL.

>Replace all existing 9A1 Semi auto single action hi Power clones with any decent double stack 9mm (preferably a CZ75 or any internal rail design)

 

[_Anonymous_]

No, no, those are the stuff you blame for the 'technical' reason why LCA has been delayed.

LCA took so long only because of one reason. Everything else simply piled on as delays happened and are all secondary. Can you point out that one reason? If you do, you will get the reason why we have no need to outsource AMCA to Dassault.

Hint: It's only after having achieved this that the Chinese are now releasing new aircraft like they have diarrhoea.



All that's subjective. Even with all the experience in the world, the US screwed up the F-35.

And just because the J-20 or F-35 are active now doesn't mean AMCA will be at the same level in 2037.

No I'm unable to figure it out .Please elaborate .

 

[randomradio]

No I'm unable to figure it out .Please elaborate .

It's flight controls. We created an unstable object and gave it the power of flight. This is easily the hardest part in designing a fighter aircraft and we had to do it from scratch. This is the only reason why it took so long to develop the LCA. It took us 25+ years to get it right. We also took a long time to get the experience necessary to certify it.

Now that we have managed to successfully do it, all future programs will be designed and inducted much sooner than it took to induct the LCA.

From a broader perspective, we had to invent a lot of stuff, or re-invent if you must. We had to get the airframe design right, then we got the flight controls. We had to develop all the sub-systems from scratch, like radar, EW suite etc. Invention is the hardest part and can take a long time to accomplish.

From now on, for all successive programs, we need more innovation and less invention. Innovation is much easier to accomplish than invention. It's about making better versions of existing designs. For example, it took more than a decade for us to design and induct a mechanical scan radar. But Uttam was designed and developed in a shorter time by the same lab. The design is going to continue to evolve.

It's the same thing with the engine. We need to get the basic building blocks ready, which could take as much as 30 years, once done, we can start designing and producing prototypes of new and better engine designs in just a few years.

LCA Mk1's FOC will signal the maturity of our core technologies that's necessary to develop the AMCA. With the flight controls fully operational and certified, the development of AMCA will happen really fast. After that's done, adding avionics will be subject to what's available. We don't need the French for that.

 

[_Anonymous_]

It's flight controls. We created an unstable object and gave it the power of flight. This is easily the hardest part in designing a fighter aircraft and we had to do it from scratch. This is the only reason why it took so long to develop the LCA. It took us 25+ years to get it right. We also took a long time to get the experience necessary to certify it.

Now that we have managed to successfully do it, all future programs will be designed and inducted much sooner than it took to induct the LCA.

From a broader perspective, we had to invent a lot of stuff, or re-invent if you must. We had to get the airframe design right, then we got the flight controls. We had to develop all the sub-systems from scratch, like radar, EW suite etc. Invention is the hardest part and can take a long time to accomplish.

From now on, for all successive programs, we need more innovation and less invention. Innovation is much easier to accomplish than invention. It's about making better versions of existing designs. For example, it took more than a decade for us to design and induct a mechanical scan radar. But Uttam was designed and developed in a shorter time by the same lab. The design is going to continue to evolve.

It's the same thing with the engine. We need to get the basic building blocks ready, which could take as much as 30 years, once done, we can start designing and producing prototypes of new and better engine designs in just a few years.

LCA Mk1's FOC will signal the maturity of our core technologies that's necessary to develop the AMCA. With the flight controls fully operational and certified, the development of AMCA will happen really fast. After that's done, adding avionics will be subject to what's available. We don't need the French for that.

What technologies constitute a 5 generation FA in your opinion and what's our expertise in it ?

You've mentioned the Flight Control Laws which is one of the 4-5 mission accomplishments of Project LCA apart from the Carbon Composites used as the skin of the FA. Our accomplishments in design / manufacture of the other mission accomplishments namely the MMR / AESA and the engine is a bit of a mixed bag. Assuming our little experiment with DA/ SNECMA comes through , we'd still be powering all our future FA with an engine with an essentially French core . While it may suit our needs for the time being its a huge hole - the size of a crater for future projects.

I tell you why I've asked this question coz in all your interactions with Sancho on IDF you came out as overtly optimistic about our capabilities and plans while he was the rank opposite of you .I suspect the truth is somewhere in between .

 

[Techy]

As per me, some of immediate priority would be:

• Strengthen the artillery. We need to have quick induction of ATAGS possibly from both private sector lines of Tata and Kalyani. Do a user trial for light Artillery developed by Kalyani and see if it’s good then induct it for light and mobile artillery requirements.
• Fast track Tejas MK 1-A for immediate single engine requirements. Also, evaluate @vstol Jockey 's jet fairly and give it a chance. If it’s any good as it was being claimed by him then we will have a good home grown program. That way we would have two Indian lines for jet production to address dwindling numbers.
• Make Andaman & Nicobar as virtual aircraft carriers by placing large mix of aircrafts which can project the power in eastern theatre and help us deal with any Chinese misadventure.
• Immediately sort out P-75I program and start the implementation to address Sub shortage issue.
• Conclude FICV program and start with next stage of the process.
• Sort out Arjun mess and if needed start plan for next Gen tanks.
• Revive Smart Soldier program as it’s a must in modern warfare.
• As @Milspec pointed out, make K15- Sagarika/Shourya Missile compatible with wider variety of naval platforms to make navy more potent.
• Expedite the process of MCMV and NGMV programs.
• Address air force requirement of Mid Air refuellers and Navy’s helicopter shortage on an urgent basis.

The list can be huge but above items are needed on urgent basis otherwise our forces will lag with our adversaries.

 

[Aditya10r]

Set up cooperation with Dassault for AMCA as part of FCAS futur French system of Systems

And get it done quick and order in numbers.

___________________________________________

 

[randomradio]

What technologies constitute a 5 generation FA in your opinion and what's our expertise in it ?

When it comes to avionics, you need an AESA radar, an advanced EW suite, advanced communication with sensor fusion.

We presently have all three or in the process of getting all three. If this stuff is not equipped on Mk1A, it will be ready for Mk2. Ghatak will most definitely have only indigenous equipment.

But AMCA will have avionics that are at a much higher level than 5th gen. Since it's our own aircraft, we may see major upgrades during production itself. Like how the Mk1 became Mk1A with highly advanced avionics. We can't make such major changes if the French are also involved.

You've mentioned the Flight Control Laws which is one of the 4-5 mission accomplishments of Project LCA apart from the Carbon Composites used as the skin of the FA. Our accomplishments in design / manufacture of the other mission accomplishments namely the MMR / AESA and the engine is a bit of a mixed bag. Assuming our little experiment with DA/ SNECMA comes through , we'd still be powering all our future FA with an engine with an essentially French core . While it may suit our needs for the time being its a huge hole - the size of a crater for future projects.

French help with the engine is fine. It propels their own engine efforts also.

We may make a AMCA Mk1A with a new indigenous engine also.

I tell you why I've asked this question coz in all your interactions with Sancho on Older Forum you came out as overtly optimistic about our capabilities and plans while he was the rank opposite of you .I suspect the truth is somewhere in between .

I was incredibly pessimistic before, say 2014, 2015 etc. But stuff has come to light since then, this stuff puts us on par with the West in many parameters. Of course, there's the question of system maturity, but that will be solved by the time AMCA comes into the picture.

System maturity is a problem for Mk2 and Ghatak in the meanwhile, so some levels of hand-holding is fine and expected.

 

[_Anonymous_]

When it comes to avionics, you need an AESA radar, an advanced EW suite, advanced communication with sensor fusion.

We presently have all three or in the process of getting all three. If this stuff is not equipped on Mk1A, it will be ready for Mk2. Ghatak will most definitely have only indigenous equipment.

But AMCA will have avionics that are at a much higher level than 5th gen. Since it's our own aircraft, we may see major upgrades during production itself. Like how the Mk1 became Mk1A with highly advanced avionics. We can't make such major changes if the French are also involved.



French help with the engine is fine. It propels their own engine efforts also.

We may make a AMCA Mk1A with a new indigenous engine also.



I was incredibly pessimistic before, say 2014, 2015 etc. But stuff has come to light since then, this stuff puts us on par with the West in many parameters. Of course, there's the question of system maturity, but that will be solved by the time AMCA comes into the picture.

System maturity is a problem for Mk2 and Ghatak in the meanwhile, so some levels of hand-holding is fine and expected.

All I can say is time will answer all these doubts . I hope what you're saying is true but bitter experience advises caution & trust subject to verification .

 

[randomradio]

All I can say is time will answer all these doubts . I hope what you're saying is true but bitter experience advises caution & trust subject to verification .

In a way, time can't really answer it. As outside observers, yes, time will tell us because we are merely observing the sequence of events. But to the insiders, they are making decisions today that will affect us 10 or 20 years down the line. So, as far as they are concerned, the time is already upon them.

AMCA's configuration is being readied as we speak. And, AFAIK, the French are not involved in the process. Not to mention, DRDO and ADA want to keep the AMCA as indigenous as possible.

There's one more thing that's really important. Although there seems to be a lot of optimism regarding the French on this forum, things are not really as smooth as you believe. The French are not going to give us anything worthwhile either, let me make that clear. Even Rafale MII has limits to ToT of existing Rafale technology, so what makes you think they will hand over future technology so easily? The cooperation will definitely be way better than what the Americans can ever provide, but not so much that we can allow ourselves to outsource such a critical project. So any cooperation that you are really expecting from them will fall short of your expectations simply because no country will ever hand over critical technologies.

The French are good for the Rafale, obviously. Anything related to the Rafale is good because even their own country is invested in it.

They are good for assistance in making some core technologies, which they consider is becoming outdated, like the RBE-2AA. Which is very useful for aircraft like LCA.

But when it comes to AMCA, they will not give us their best technologies. So we will get stuck with older technologies and our project will be held hostage by the French. The project won't move as long as the French deliver. And any delay here would mean the IAF will be forced to buy a Block 2 variant of the Rafale in numbers. The ones in greater threat will be the IN because they will need AMCA for their future carrier program.

If AMCA has to go somewhere, it will have to be through our own efforts.

 

[screambowl]

I have seen that most of the threads on this forum are dedicated to IAF and most of the experts are on IAF. And IAF is the the weakest among the tri service in terms of procurement, exercise, development and operations.

 

[bonobashi]

what choice does India have in this respect ? The Russians are huffing and puffing w.r.t progress on the PAKFA. Had they stuck to their part of the JV on FGFA within the necessary timelines , they would be our partner for AMCA.

We aren't in a position to develop the technologies needed on our own for 5 th Generation FA . We need a technology partner . If you look around all those nations which lack the wherewithal for such a programme have tied up with such a technology partner be it Turkey with BAe , SK with LM (?) & the UAE with Russia .

Perhaps, you need to elaborate on your objection.

There has been a long working relationship between SAAB and BAE. Did you mean BAE?

 

[_Anonymous_]

There has been a long working relationship between SAAB and BAE. Did you mean BAE?

British Aerospace .

 

[Golden_Rule]

We should look at mastering specific technology over chasing the whole chain of everything in a blueprint of a system. My contention is that today world is globalised and re-inventing the wheel may not serve the purpose.

An example
1. Perfecting Kaveri with Safran and developing a family of engines.
2. looking at civilian engine spin-off from the Safransied Kaveri program
3. Focussing on AESA Radars
4. Focussing on EW aspects
5. Focussing on Space-based assets for SIGINT, ELINT, IMINT, SATINT and COMINT
6. Focussing on cyber warfare
7. extended research and use of Artifical Intelligence and critical application in decision making by scenario simulations
8. Focusing on Energy Weapons

9. Balkanization of Pakistan and recovery of POK
10. Counter offensive strategic investment to neutralize China's expansion within the same littoral states
11. Stealth AMCA & AHCA aka FGFA
12. Nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier
13. Asia's Quad to build military island posts in SCS to project counter offensive to China
14. Develop Space based weapons to scavenge enemy satellites
15. Super Special relations with Myanmar to block China's tread towards bay of Bengal
16. Develop and manufacture latest and futuristic Small Arms

 

[screambowl]

We didn't have the ecosystem like labs and wind tunnels to design and test different components in the aerospace industry. Everything had to be established from the scratch.

who told you that
we have everything thing but we don't maintain it
go to that IIT K there they have but they never clean it most of the lights and for photo sensing and other pressure testing sensors are fused.

Last time when I was there for project related work, we had to do pocha and jhadu there before testing.

Nonsense.