Oh yeah, on that note, what I meant to say earlier is that you should buy some secondhand Tornado GR4s. Keep an eye on ebay.
I still don't support Rafale-M for India, but if there is money and the carrier related problems are fixed, then it's all good. But if they do go for Rafale-M, it should only be 57 jets and maybe another squadron as options. The new carrier requires a new aircraft, like AMCA.
Dassault's cooperation with AMCA puts too many eggs in the French basket. It will work only if there is mutual benefit.
what choice does India have in this respect ? The Russians are huffing and puffing w.r.t progress on the PAKFA. Had they stuck to their part of the JV on FGFA within the necessary timelines , they would be our partner for AMCA.
We aren't in a position to develop the technologies needed on our own for 5 th Generation FA . We need a technology partner . If you look around all those nations which lack the wherewithal for such a programme have tied up with such a technology partner be it Turkey with BAe , SK with LM (?) & the UAE with Russia .
Perhaps, you need to elaborate on your objection .
Would it not be better to jointly develop our 5th Gen plane along with someone.
Look at all the options
Japan A good chance as they need to be ready for China and they are well funded and good work ethics
Korea An american ally also, a developed defence industry
Russia They have a new plane but India is not sure about it
Israel They dont really need a new plane
Europe Their combined requirement is huge, but some are customers of F-35 so the sale of 5th gen plane will be lmited.
so why not put a competition for 5th gen plane which has to be jointly developed and produced.. We did a lot of time pass with MRCA. lets try one more
Look at all the options
Japan A good chance as they need to be ready for China and they are well funded and good work ethics
Korea An american ally also, a developed defence industry
Russia They have a new plane but India is not sure about it
Israel They dont really need a new plane
Europe Their combined requirement is huge, but some are customers of F-35 so the sale of 5th gen plane will be lmited.
so why not put a competition for 5th gen plane which has to be jointly developed and produced.. We did a lot of time pass with MRCA. lets try one more
I think we need to change our no first use policy of our nukes. Develop and induct more accurate ICBMs and more subs with nuke tipped missiles. Do more tests of our missile defence system make it full proof and induct soon. Now no one will dare to attack and we have sufficient time to develop technology in aerospace sector. We also need to develop Lakshdweep and Andaman Nicobar as complete air and military base for dominance in Indian ocean. These will be unsinkable aircraft carriers permanently deployed in Indian Ocean.
I am afraid future wars would be fought not just in battlefields but also economically and in Cyberspace.
We need to start working on economy as well as cyber warfare capability. Enemies would hit our communication and infrastructure systems to bring us to our knees.
We have one of biggest pool of talented ethical cyber hackers but we never use them to create a robust defense or fear among our enemies.
In future Chinese would cripple our systems before real war begins and I am afraid we are still neglecting that part. Good surveillance and offensive capability to hit enemies is a must in all domains is a must for future.
We need to start working on economy as well as cyber warfare capability. Enemies would hit our communication and infrastructure systems to bring us to our knees.
We have one of biggest pool of talented ethical cyber hackers but we never use them to create a robust defense or fear among our enemies.
In future Chinese would cripple our systems before real war begins and I am afraid we are still neglecting that part. Good surveillance and offensive capability to hit enemies is a must in all domains is a must for future.
We are in a position to develop 5th gen and higher technologies, but it will take time. We will get new technologies on our own through LCA Mk2 and Ghatak programs even without help from foreign companies. Other countries like Turkey and SK do not have the same level of R&D capacity as we do. Our R&D is happening across all fields, nuclear, space etc, which the others are not as involved in. So it's not comparable.
Even if FGFA happens, the Russians won't be a major partner in AMCA. Eggs in basket.
If we partner with Dassault on pretty much everything, it is a huge drawback. We can't allow it to hold a monopoly in all our programs and lose control of all the programs in case differences come up, that simply does not make sense.
The fact is Dassault will share technology only if we start a MII program with them. Once that's done, the same laboratories that will be involved in developing future technologies for Rafale will also be involved in developing technologies for AMCA also. The same labs will be involved in FGFA as well, if it happens. There is no need to give Dassault a controlling stake in everything when the benefits are few. Rafale F4 followed by F5 or NG will provide enough buffer to the IAF until AMCA becomes available.
So what Picdel is proposing is we combine these two requirements into one. But I'm saying we need to keep them separated so tomorrow France does not screw us over because we decided to test nuclear weapons, or invade some Gulf country or something radical that can change relations overnight, which is bound to happen when India's hunger for resources and influence starts overlapping with the West. AMCA will be the insurance against Dassault's monopoly. Dassault isn't a charity, they will do only what's in their interests.
The only way it will work is if both France and India have an equal stake in AMCA, like it is the case with Russia and India with respect to FGFA. Why give massive amounts of R&D funds to Dassault unless ADLA is also buying a few squadrons? Aerospace isn't about outsourcing.
My proposal:
1. Go for Rafale MII.
2. Use French help in the LCA program. As much as is possible.
3. Develop future configurations of Rafale together.
4. Have an independent AMCA program.
2 and 3 will give us all the technologies necessary to carry us to the next half of the century. We shouldn't combine 3 and 4, nor will we have the need to do so. My proposal is a more expensive proposal, but it gives us a competing jet to the Rafale.
If FGFA happens, we will automatically get a competing jet, so we can combine 3 and 4 for an overall cheaper AMCA.
That's where the FGFA comes in.
The Israelis need a new plane to replace the F-15, but they don't have the kind of money necessary for such a large project. They survive on American dole outs. They may end up buying 2 squadrons of AMCA if the Americans don't provide them with anything good.
You say we can develop the technologies given time for 5th generation FA. We already have the example of the LCA project before us . Its not been a failure as it's critics would like to point out but it's not the overwhelming success its supporters claim it to be . Part of the reason is the same optimism you display which prompted the over reach on the part of the ADA in terms of developing technologies for the LCA project which has been a mixed bag to say the least .
While your contention about MoD not putting all its eggs in the DA / French basket is well taken , I personally would take your claims about India developing all those technologies needed for a 5 th Generation FA in house within the requisite timelines with a pinch of salt .
There was a significant mismatch between IAF's and ADA's objectives in the LCA program. Both sides failed to communicate with each other, and the project went into limbo. That's not the case with how the system is today, there's been huge improvement since then. In fact, IAF is following pretty much all their programs very closely, especially Ghatak.
Modi's also started putting the squeeze on DRDO, so that's playing a part.
Like, all the grandpas who control the system are getting sidelined and younger scientists who really want to work are being given preference to move to the top.
DRDO goes young with Modi
I'd rather we err on the side of caution. The "Young Turks " as You put it are still an unknown entity . Let them at least deliver on their promises with the Mk1a .
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You can't justify handing over our entire aerospace industry to the French simply because you think LCA was handled poorly.
The LCA was a case of a monkey's hand in a cookie jar. The fact is the actual experts on the ground, including the IAF, expected the LCA would go the way it did. Nobody had any doubts that ADA was lying to the govt and public. We had to build infrastructure from the ground up before the LCA program was actually supposed to start. None of the core technologies were ready during the time. That's why it took as long as it did. Although not excusable, ADA did what they did to ensure the survival of the program.
But the same thing won't repeat with AMCA because the infrastructure will be built for LCA Mk2 and Ghatak first. All the core technologies necessary for AMCA will be ready by the time the first prototype takes to the air. Ghatak has been planned to be developed with zero foreign assistance.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-ghatak-stealth-ucav-moves-forward.html
Over the last three-four years, the Aeronautical Development Agency has been made aware by several foreign airframers, including stealth pioneer Lockheed-Martin, Dassault, Boeing, BAE Systems,and even MiG Corp that they’d be willing to assist the Ghatak programme in a possible variety of ways — either as offsets, or a commercial consultancy arrangement. Livefist can however confirm that the Narendra Modi government has decided that the stealth component of the Ghatak programme will be entirely in-house, and will be limited to academic institutions and private industry in country. Decisions of this kind have changed in the past (notably with the LCA Tejas programme), but the highest levels in government are clear at this time that programme ought to develop its own core technologies without external help.
AMCA will get the go-ahead only after the LCA program has matured. The biggest hurdle is the FOC of Mk1.
I like the way you ended your post . Despite all your gung ho optimism , you yourself consider the FOC of Mk1 to be a "hurdle".
I rest my case.