Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk
- Thread starter Ashwin
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HTT40 was always supposed to be developed by HAL on their own.
The same doesn't exist for HTT-40 either. Only real aircraft have hangars and lines.
Obfuscating the fact that it's still not an IAF project.
Read stuff from 2009. I keep up with such news.
It wasn't an agreement. It was a "develop what you can and we will see". HAl actually has to develop a viable trainer, which the HTT-40, as of today, is not.
Last year alone they borrowed money many times. They didn't do so in the past, this is all recent, since the last decade or so.
Many people have also criticized DPSUs showing interest as profits, and using delays and cost overruns as a weapon to make such profits.
Read one such article.
Defence PSUs profiting on advances
Now imagine bringing delays into this kind of profit churning.
Dude, you have no idea how sh!t DPSUs really are. They need to go ASAP.
Reference?
Which need an RFP at minimum for HAL to start building.
So what about LCA? AMCA? LCH? ALH? why were the orders placed before a viable aircraft was in production?
I did, and thus asking you where did you learn about the split in the order?
It very much is, it's tests are on track to clear. Dont confuse HAL with ADA.
This is actually quite simple. MDL is not a listed company and still posts it's Balance sheet every year. HAL has submitted it's Annual reports for even longer, find me one instance of 1000cr debt for HAL in the past decade.
And those many people are morons. If you have a large sum of money in your savings account, and you are earning interests on it, try next time not paying taxes on those using this logic that interests are not profits.
But apart from all of this, If the PC7 is the perfect aircraft for the Indian Airforce's requirement, has the right performance, and was bought at the best price,
Why would Pilatus pay 1 million francs to dalals? Does that still remains a relevant question?
There's no reference for something that doesn't exist.
Nope. Neither Advanced Hawk nor SPORT have RFPs either.
HAL can always build the HTT-40 and offer it to other civilian operators and countries.
Those were actual IAF sanctioned projects. HTT-40 is not. Why is this so hard to understand?
It's common knowledge from the time.
IAF identifies lowest bidder for trainer aircraft tender
Then let's talk about it when it's actually done. IJT has been under testing a lot longer than LCA.
Please don't compare ADA with HAL, that's insulting ADA. HAL can't even make a trainer while ADA has already moved on to 5th gen aircraft and flying wing designs.
As I said before, let the investigation reveal the details.
PC7 isn't the perfect aircraft for the IAF, but it's at least a real flying aircraft.
So you are bs'ing as usual.
And thus no protypes , no lines for either of the aircrafts. Advanced hawk is a more or less just a build kit, while SPORT is a paper plane. HTT 40 has flying prototypes.
No, they can't. The aircraft was built pitched as per MoD's plan of splitting the basic trainer program.
Again wrong, it was santioned program, with it's budget not being santioned in the AOP > clearly because our ACM wanted a cut he did not get.
But you just claimed there is no reference for the same that never exists. The common knowledge from the that time is MoD had planned a split procurement between HAL and Pilatus, but then you claim it's not santioned. Make up your mind dude.
Where do you get this bullshit from, is it on sale that you peddle such loads of it?
TD1 for LCA flew on 4th jan 2001
Pt1 for Ijt flew in march 2003.
Doodling 5th gen on back of notebook doesn't make you a designer. HAL is stuck with all the chutiyaapa ADA has done in the LCA program. The same HAL also made ALH, LCH and aircraft like the Siryakiran, jet trainer 5 decades ago. A shit agency like ADA stuggled with a 4gen aircraft for 3 decaded in the same time period HAL delivered more than 800 aircraft.
This is news to me, the manner in which the ACM pitched it, it seemd there wasn't a better trainer in the world at the time.
So, then where's the IAF's agreement? And why isn't HAL talking about it?
Advanced Hawk is already flying. SPORT is simply a disarmed trainer. Both are far, far ahead compared to HTT-40, which is still doing spin tests.
Please furnish proof.
Trainer requirement was split, but still HTT-40 is a private program from HAL.
It was a "build it and we will see if it's good enough" program.
And LCA received IOC in 2013. IJT = ????
12 years versus 16 years and counting. I thought you were an engineer who knew math?
Lol. You are comparing a screw driver company with an R&D lab. Never mind the fact that the ALH was 90% imported.
Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' | India News - Times of India
And now, it has come to light that another so-called major indigenous defence project, the twin-engine Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), whose design and development began way back in 1984, is still around 90% foreign.
HTT-40's requirement was much more advanced. Whereas the tender is from 2009 for proven trainers. So the PC-7 was advanced for its time.
The future requirement for 106 trainers were supposed to be for a more advanced version. If it wasn't for that, the IAF would have simply made a tender for all 181 instead of just 75, as they had originally planned.
MoD agreed for the split with the notion that HAL would develop their own version before the requirement for the remaining 106 aircraft comes up.
One can imagine if there was no corruption involved. IAF would have gone ahead with 38 more PC-7s, reducing HAL's order to 68, and possibly even lower considering the delay with HTT-40. Now it's all up in the air again. If HAL doesn't finish developing the HTT-40 soon, it's over for the program.
Parrikar: 68 basic trainer aircraft to come from HAL, 38 from Pilatus
Where is the RFP?
Advanced hawk, like all other hawks is a kit plane, and nothing exists of SPORT. HTT 40 on the other hand has ground up a/c; which MoD initially claimed will be twice as expensive as PC7 (Debunked) and wouldn't fly till 2017.
For ACM's corruption, Oh thats just figment of our imagination. I am sure Pilatus paid no one.
You mean the Plane or the Commission? you have to be clear when referring to the MoD.
Cheeky, but IJT failed it's testing. Its development time to a prototype was way faster than LCA.
No I am comparing a limited design department of a manufacturing powerhouse of India with a third rate drdo lab. As I said by the time your ADA developed the LCA; HAL built close to a 1000 aircraft, let that sink in.
Now for you cheap ALH comment of 2010, you should read up CAG findings as recent as last year.
CAG picks holes in LCA project, says it fails to meet IAF requirements
This the ASQR vs PSQR defence. by the same logic, LCA's requirement should surpass that of Rafale's; so I assume LCA will supercruise at a higher fuel efficiency than that of Rafales carrying more payload?
Irrespective HTT40 surpasses the PSQR.
And if the PC7 was indeed so advanced, why would the IAF dilute it's benchmarks back in 2009 to let PC7 in to the competition to begin with (remember HTT40 did not exist at that time)
Well I would argue if there was no corruption, then MoD would have released the money for HTT40 in 2007 when the concept was pitched to IAF. HAL funded the project after IAF rejected HAL's proposal, in 2012. Within three years it had it's prototype flying, if funded in 07 when it was concived even with delays, you could have had a production line by 2012
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The very reason why it's ground up design is why it doesn't exist, unlike the other two, and the other two do not have RFPs and orders either.
Proof about HTT-40 being a sanctioned IAF program.
You're comparing the development time to prototype of a trainer with a 4th gen fighter. This explains how disingenous you are.
It's funny how you are comparing a failed project by HAL with a successful one by ADA.
Totally irrelevant comparison. A more relevant comparison: How many HAL designed aircraft has HAL built during the same time?
Haha. Now you're comparing LCA with Rafale. Cheap thrills much.
Because then no trainer would get shortlisted. The RFP was for its time, HTT-40's RFP was for a more advanced time.
If IAF asks for all-up stealth for MMRCA, in order to match up with AMCA, then no MMRCA contender would qualify for the same either.
That's why MMRCA RFP specs are much, much lower than AMCA's. I don't see ADA complaining here.
Yeah, more sops to HAL. HAL wants everything. All that IAF operates should be made by HAL and HAL only.
But Htt exists as a prototype and needs RFP to build it's line. Maybe I should ask what is the bottom line rate for the ACM's office to sanction the the program? Or does HAL needs to look up Offset India
Parrikar: 68 basic trainer aircraft to come from HAL, 38 from Pilatus
Let's remind ourselves who dragged IJT into this discussion? That will give a clue to who is being disingenuous.
Again not me buddy, its you who wanted to drag IJT into this;
HAL was not allowed to participate in LCA or a comparable design, When given an opportunity to design HAL has delivered, whether it being ALH,LCH,IJT (Which yes failed), HF24, Surya Kiran.
As many it was sanctioned to design by the MoD. ALH, LCH, HTT40, IJT (Failed); Bison Upgrades (Well partially).
Alright, This is an outright lie, because both the American Texan II and the Korean KT1 qualified the with the existing PSQR, while the PC7 did not meet the PSQR and then the diluted ASQR let the PC7 qualify.
So you are now outright lying?
In a happy coincidence, the diluted ASQR allowed the PC-7 Mark II to qualify (it did not meet the PSQR requirement, which had been imposed on HAL). Without that dilution, Pilatus would have had to field the PC-21, a costlier trainer that would have been unlikely to be the lowest bidder. Making the PC-7 Mark II technically compliant by lowering the specifications brought a low-cost trainer into contention.
Meanwhile, the other trainers that qualified --- the Korean Aerospace KT-1; and the American Hawker-Beechcraft T-6C Texan-II --- were qualitatively better (meeting the PSQR requirements).
Broadsword: Admissions, obfuscations in Indian Air Force explanation on Business Standard reports
So we have
1> PSQR diluted to New ASQR to qualify PC7 which did not originally qualify. (While both Texan and Kt1 did)
2> Graft charges on IAF/MoD officials who were involved in the deal
3> ACM giving out inconsistent figures for PC7
4>ACM and MoD giving negative price figures for HTT40 - (debunked)
5>ACM and MoD aggressively trying to kill the homegrown trainer.
6> Allegation of Pilatus paying 1million frank to Offset India Solutions (Vadra/Bhandari firm)
Given the above, I think I have to recant my objection, you must be absolutely right that PC7 is the right choice for the IAF.
You don't think F35 will qualify or the FGFA? to the AMCA specs. But the point really is LCA still doesn't live up to the specifications of ASQR for IAF, as shown by the CAG, why is there an RFP?
Yeah, more sops
to HAL. HAL wants everything. All that IAF operates should be made by HAL and HAL only.
May be Offset India Solutions should make it then, at least the IAF officials will be happy?
Haha. I dragge in IJT because you were talking about how awesome HAL is at developing aircraft that don't exist while comapring to a lab which actually has something to show, while at the same time you extolled the virtues of playing with LEGOs that HAL is a champion at.
Anyway cheers. This is never gonna go anywhere. If HAL doesn't deliver HTT-40, it's gonna lose out to another import.
Sure bro, you know jack shit about HAL, and still spew vile nonsense about it all the while waving pom poms at the massive corrupt practices of MoD/IAF.
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Fun, isn't it.
We shall see when HAL actually develops an aircraft worthy of note.
More than 70 years of building aircraft and they can't even do 1% of a company like Embraer, a company that's a lot younger than HAL and now even we are importing jets from them.
Right now, all HAL does is build someone else's design, no original work of their own. This is something any company in India can replicate in a very short time. Wait for DRAL to do the same with the Falcon in just 3 more years. In just 10 years, we will have half a dozen companies capable of replacing HAL.
The winner will be announced in 2021 - pls post address to send "We told you so" balloons
No need to import trainer aircraft, HTT 40 to be ready by December: HAL
New Delhi: India does not need to import any more basic trainer aircraft for the armed forces as the indigenous HTT 40 will be ready by the end of this year, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which has invested Rs 550 crore in the development project, has said.
With the defence ministry banning Swiss company Pilatus, which supplied the current set of PC 7 Mk II trainers to the Air Force, HAL said the import requirement of 36 aircraft can also be added to the indigenous order and that the first unit can be delivered within a year.
“We have completed most of the tests and the aircraft has been performing very well,” HAL chairmanR Madhavan told ET. “We should be able to complete the spin tests (the last stage) by December and will have the aircraft certified as well. If the Air Force places the order, the first one can be delivered within a year.”
The defence ministry has already committed to buying 70 of the HTT 40 aircraft and HAL has formally represented that the additional order for 36, which was initially reserved for Pilatus, also be added to its kitty. “This should add to our order as it would make it much easier for everyone – the per aircraft cost will come down as the total number will cross 100. The HTT 40 is unique as it is specifically designed to meet all requirements put up by the Air Force,” the HAL chairman said.
As reported by ET, Swiss firm Pilatus has been banned this month after the defence ministry found it guilty of violating an integrity pact after it was revealed that it paid over 1 million Swiss francs to a company owned by arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari.
The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has registered a case naming the company and all dealings have been banned for at least a year. Before the Swiss company was banned, the Air Force had been in negotiations to acquire 36 more of the PC 7 Mk II aircraft to its fleet of basic trainers, given an acute shortage that has impacted training of its pilots.
On reports that the IAF was looking at an import option to meet the requirement of 36 basic trainers, the HAL chairman said it would be much quicker to place an order for the HTT 40, which is also being looked at by other nations. “The Air Force has to take a call but we have nearly completed the project and can deliver within one year of the order being placed. In fact, other nations have also shown interest in the aircraft and we have received many enquiries, including for a light ground attack version,” Madhavan said, adding that the HTT 40 can also be used for the intermediate training stage.
HAL will be able to produce the aircraft on its existing lines but needs to order raw material and stores against an order to start the production. The two prototype aircraft that are currently being tested can be offered for trials to the Air Force by the year-end.
As reported by ET, the Air Force is heading into what could be a training crisis with all its plans to acquire new trainer aircraft hitting a roadblock and two indigenous programmes to develop basic and intermediate training planes missing critical internal deadlines.
The Air Force has painted a grim picture for its trainer aircraft fleet by pointing out that efforts to develop a basic trainer under the HTT 40 programme is running five years behind schedule, with HAL unlikely to even be certified for flight by 2021even if there are ‘no uncertainties in development testing’. HAL, however, counters this by saying that the initial operational clearance (IOC) certification will be available by the end of this year, following which production versions of the aircraft can be rolled out.
New Delhi: India does not need to import any more basic trainer aircraft for the armed forces as the indigenous HTT 40 will be ready by the end of this year, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which has invested Rs 550 crore in the development project, has said.
With the defence ministry banning Swiss company Pilatus, which supplied the current set of PC 7 Mk II trainers to the Air Force, HAL said the import requirement of 36 aircraft can also be added to the indigenous order and that the first unit can be delivered within a year.
“We have completed most of the tests and the aircraft has been performing very well,” HAL chairmanR Madhavan told ET. “We should be able to complete the spin tests (the last stage) by December and will have the aircraft certified as well. If the Air Force places the order, the first one can be delivered within a year.”
The defence ministry has already committed to buying 70 of the HTT 40 aircraft and HAL has formally represented that the additional order for 36, which was initially reserved for Pilatus, also be added to its kitty. “This should add to our order as it would make it much easier for everyone – the per aircraft cost will come down as the total number will cross 100. The HTT 40 is unique as it is specifically designed to meet all requirements put up by the Air Force,” the HAL chairman said.
As reported by ET, Swiss firm Pilatus has been banned this month after the defence ministry found it guilty of violating an integrity pact after it was revealed that it paid over 1 million Swiss francs to a company owned by arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari.
The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has registered a case naming the company and all dealings have been banned for at least a year. Before the Swiss company was banned, the Air Force had been in negotiations to acquire 36 more of the PC 7 Mk II aircraft to its fleet of basic trainers, given an acute shortage that has impacted training of its pilots.
On reports that the IAF was looking at an import option to meet the requirement of 36 basic trainers, the HAL chairman said it would be much quicker to place an order for the HTT 40, which is also being looked at by other nations. “The Air Force has to take a call but we have nearly completed the project and can deliver within one year of the order being placed. In fact, other nations have also shown interest in the aircraft and we have received many enquiries, including for a light ground attack version,” Madhavan said, adding that the HTT 40 can also be used for the intermediate training stage.
HAL will be able to produce the aircraft on its existing lines but needs to order raw material and stores against an order to start the production. The two prototype aircraft that are currently being tested can be offered for trials to the Air Force by the year-end.
As reported by ET, the Air Force is heading into what could be a training crisis with all its plans to acquire new trainer aircraft hitting a roadblock and two indigenous programmes to develop basic and intermediate training planes missing critical internal deadlines.
The Air Force has painted a grim picture for its trainer aircraft fleet by pointing out that efforts to develop a basic trainer under the HTT 40 programme is running five years behind schedule, with HAL unlikely to even be certified for flight by 2021even if there are ‘no uncertainties in development testing’. HAL, however, counters this by saying that the initial operational clearance (IOC) certification will be available by the end of this year, following which production versions of the aircraft can be rolled out.
No need to import trainer aircraft, HTT 40 to be ready by December: HAL
New Delhi: India does not need to import any more basic trainer aircraft for the armed forces as the indigenous HTT 40 will be ready by the end of this year, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which has invested Rs 550 crore in the development project, has said.
With the defence ministry banning Swiss company Pilatus, which supplied the current set of PC 7 Mk II trainers to the Air Force, HAL said the import requirement of 36 aircraft can also be added to the indigenous order and that the first unit can be delivered within a year.
“We have completed most of the tests and the aircraft has been performing very well,” HAL chairmanR Madhavan told ET. “We should be able to complete the spin tests (the last stage) by December and will have the aircraft certified as well. If the Air Force places the order, the first one can be delivered within a year.”
The defence ministry has already committed to buying 70 of the HTT 40 aircraft and HAL has formally represented that the additional order for 36, which was initially reserved for Pilatus, also be added to its kitty. “This should add to our order as it would make it much easier for everyone – the per aircraft cost will come down as the total number will cross 100. The HTT 40 is unique as it is specifically designed to meet all requirements put up by the Air Force,” the HAL chairman said.
As reported by ET, Swiss firm Pilatus has been banned this month after the defence ministry found it guilty of violating an integrity pact after it was revealed that it paid over 1 million Swiss francs to a company owned by arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari.
The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has registered a case naming the company and all dealings have been banned for at least a year. Before the Swiss company was banned, the Air Force had been in negotiations to acquire 36 more of the PC 7 Mk II aircraft to its fleet of basic trainers, given an acute shortage that has impacted training of its pilots.
On reports that the IAF was looking at an import option to meet the requirement of 36 basic trainers, the HAL chairman said it would be much quicker to place an order for the HTT 40, which is also being looked at by other nations. “The Air Force has to take a call but we have nearly completed the project and can deliver within one year of the order being placed. In fact, other nations have also shown interest in the aircraft and we have received many enquiries, including for a light ground attack version,” Madhavan said, adding that the HTT 40 can also be used for the intermediate training stage.
HAL will be able to produce the aircraft on its existing lines but needs to order raw material and stores against an order to start the production. The two prototype aircraft that are currently being tested can be offered for trials to the Air Force by the year-end.
As reported by ET, the Air Force is heading into what could be a training crisis with all its plans to acquire new trainer aircraft hitting a roadblock and two indigenous programmes to develop basic and intermediate training planes missing critical internal deadlines.
The Air Force has painted a grim picture for its trainer aircraft fleet by pointing out that efforts to develop a basic trainer under the HTT 40 programme is running five years behind schedule, with HAL unlikely to even be certified for flight by 2021even if there are ‘no uncertainties in development testing’. HAL, however, counters this by saying that the initial operational clearance (IOC) certification will be available by the end of this year, following which production versions of the aircraft can be rolled out.
Depends on what is considered "IOC". For a trainer you need a fully certified aircraft, or else there's no point, it'll just be a flying taxi.
And the IAF is not going to order anything in high double digits for IOC anyway. Case in point, 20 LCA, 10 LCH etc.
HAL needs to stop using silly tricks to put pressure on the IAF. This govt is not going to stand for it.
@Falcon
