Honestly this is a lifeline to HAL - given one year to show significant progress and meet that 2021 deadline to start production. Else we will see that there was no case against pilatius and all is well with the world !
Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
There's still a lot to go with the Pilatus. And honestly, I do hope it's a corruption case and I do hope the ones who did it are jailed, including the IAF Chief, if he's part of it. That way corruption will reduce even more significantly within the MoD and the armed forces. And this will also force non-MoD security forces to also clean up their act.
As for HAL, yeah, they need to get their act together and finish development of the HTT-40, or else the entire order of 106 will go to another company instead. The IJT has already become a long running joke, and now they can't even develop a basic trainer in time.
My main hope is on the private industry taking the lead in aerospace.
Wasn't that an overly simplified position, devoid of nuances, while at the same time every foreign platform has its own cheerleaders among us Indians except for any indigeneous product? Its just an observation after watching many forums for years. Pardon my ignorance if it is totally misplaced.
You are comparing a paper plane to something that exists. If said paper plane interferes with operational readiness, then it shouldn't get the support it apparently should deserve. That's why the govt even cleared the proposal to buy 38 more Pilatus until CBI bust a scam. But if there was no scam?
If the HTT-40 was a fully developed and acceptable product and an import received support, then that would be wrong. But, as it stands today, the HTT-40 doesn't exist, and nobody really knows when it will. Meaning, it could very well fail spin tests and the IAF is then left with no trainer, domestic or imported.
Operational readiness is of greater priority than supporting an indigenous program. That's also why the USN decided to go for the Norwegian NSM on their frigates even though they had the Harpoon competing in the same tender. The same reason why the USAF is importing their trainer from Sweden.
HAL is government PSU that worked on developing the HTT40, as Government PSU whose AOP is approved by its board which comprises of members nominated by the MoD. The MoD along with it's prime customer IAF did not want HAL to develop HTT40 , which I have always claimed was because of IAF's corrupt practices in the PC7 deal. HAL had to go out of its way by employing discretionary funding to get this project started. This was a huge coup by HAL's management against the MoD, and HAL was shown it's placed by daylight robbery and starving HAL of even operating funds, I have posted enough about it.
You talk about if HTT 40 was fully developed and acceptable product, IAF and MoD were in cahoots to not let HAL develop HTT40 into a viable system from the get-go, evident by then ACM becoming a salesman for Pilatus.
The question still remains the same, Why would Pilatus deposit a million francs in accounts of MoD dalals when it is such a competent authority? Why would then IAF chief go on overdrive to peddle the deal, and urge HAL to cancel the plans for HTT 40?
Now lets wait for WZT to come out, that would have some heads rolling too.
First US MIC is pretty developed, in fact the numero uno in most fields, a loss of a small contract here, or a specific missile there is in no way going to dent the cash flows, and resultantly ability to further their already cutting edge tech. So your comparison on that front is really of Apples and Oranges, to say the least
Dont you see, its a chicken and egg problem? HAL won't develop* any platform because it dooesn't have sufficient funds, being a MOD PSU. IAF want fully developed Trainer and is unwilling to take the stake in supporting and hand holding a trainer dev in HAL, So, they wont fund the trainer...
All in the name of the unquestionable Op Readiness.
And it just goes in a vicious circle, leading to more and more imports, and no development of indigeneous products, is ever going to take place... because of the strategic myopia in def procurement and planning, because the system of def procurement favours the lazy solution of well developed products instead of the risky, yet rewarding exercise of developing one
*As posted by @Milspec that HAL used its stash of funds and the young team of engineers pulled out a coup or close to it is altogether another story
Anyway, all this is OT for this thread, but I just wonder how many wars are we going to win with imported toys and when weapons embargo kick in, I hope the much vaunted Op readiness remains intact.
Everyone here knows the rewarding exercise of developing one own's capabilities - we are seeing this in RADAR, Missiles etc and all their spin-off programs - All is Well there .
But you too have to agree w.r.t the Timeline for development is laughable at times with zero consequences for the PSU (in this case HAL) - why is that?
We shall wait till 2021 .... we shall see either "standing ovations" or "finger pointing" (hope the former) ..... Cheers
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Lot of holes there. Yeah, there was corruption involved, which prevented the early start of the development of the trainer. Regardless it was decided back in 2009 that both imports and HAL will fulfill half the requirements each, which wouldn't have changed anyway.
As for funding, HAL did not go out of its way to fund the trainer, it was decided early on that HAL will develop the trainer on its own tab. And money became a real issue only 2 years ago, not when the trainer funds were allocated back during the UPA regime or during the construction of the prototypes, when HAL had plenty of funds.
Ever since its first flight, nothing's stopped the development of the HTT-40, but still its delayed, and all of its delays are purely technical, which has nothing to do with the forces or the MoD.
Sure, corruption by certain individuals. Let's see where the investigation takes us.
The development of a trainer has nothing to do with the development of our aerospace industry. Menaing, simply because we didn't design the HTT-40 doesn't mean our entire aerospace industry will now fail.
You are all being suckered too much by propaganda. HAL has no issues running their company, all projects that they have invested in are well-funded, including the HTT-40. In fact, they are now progressing towards funding their Tejas SPORT using their own money as well. The development of the Combat Hawk was also on their own dime. So no, they don't have funding issues. None of these are MoD approved programs.
Wrong again, IAF chief on record stating no need for HAL HTT40 and pushed for the same despite your claim of "HAL will fulfill half the requirements each, which wouldn't have changed anyway"
Air Chief Marshal Browne gives thumbs down to HAL aircraft
Because ModD/IAF Bhandari and Co did not want HAL to develop HTT40 from the get go, HAL had to pay out of it's operating budget, but it still needs to pay for engines to Honeywell, and thus wanted solid orders from IAF, which was more keen on paying 500cr to Pliatus for Maintenance knowhow?
Learn a bit dude, capex is has and always will be "use it or lose it". You cannot apportion capital infusion for a project two years ago and pull the plug.
you gotaa be shitting me, Bankrupting HAL won't have an effect on a project it's funding from it's own discretionary funds.
The investigation won't take anyone anywhere, it's going to be another stick like augusta that BJP beats the congress with every election.
Again you are posting pure BS.
A company that has no issues running their company does not need to borrow from local banks just to pay it's salaries. especially when it has cash reserves of clos to 17000cr a few years ago drained by the incompetence and/or connivance of MoD.
Things don't go on and off based on what any individual chief says. Procurement plans are not decided by the chief but by a whole host of officers under various departments. And it most definitely plays no part in a project like HTT-40 where the IAF has no input.
What the IAF Chief argued is HTT-40 will not be on time or be cheaper than the PC-7, which have both been true. Regardless of any vested interests, it's true.
IAF Chief's possible involvement in corruption and the requirement for HTT-40 are two entirely unrelated subjects. Even if the IAF Chief is found guilty and sentenced, it doesn't mean the IAF should now buy the HTT-40. That's now how the world works.
The HTT-40 is going to have to be chosen on its own merit, or of course, more corruption if it can't get in through merit.
So where are the orders for Combat Hawk or SPORT? How is it that only HTT-40 cannot progress without orders? What kinda ridiculous world is this?
If I start a project on my own personal capacity, does that mean IAF should support it?
And what kinda ridiculous argument is that about 500Cr for Pilatus. IAF owns the Pilatus jets, of course paying for its maintenance is more important for them.
Where are you getting all these arguments from? Just because HAL is working on something, that somehow becomes IAF's problem? Then does that mean IAF should also pay for the Falcons that DRAL will be building rather than the businessmen and other private companies that are the intended customers?
If IAF has to pay for developing the HTT-40, then why are all the private companies that need basic trainers for sporting acitivities or jetliner training exempted?
Actually, all these companies that are DSCA approved should most definitely pay for the development of the HTT-40 and then buy it, since you say so.
Pilot training in India & list of DGCA approved flying academies
That's what you are arguing about, right? That the user should order and pay even though the aircraft isn't ready? So why can't all these companies also be this "user"?
This is not an IAF project. This is HAL's private project, which IAF has said will invest in "AFTER" HTT-40 is developed. When this "AFTER" will actually happen is up to HAL to answer.
IAF doesn't owe HAL sh!t in terms of new orders. They can choose whoever the hell they want to meet project needs they want to. If you want the HTT-40 to fly in IAF colours, then you are going to have to wait for it to finish development and then meet IAF requirements.
It's HAL's personal project. If someone's pulling the plug, it can only be HAL itself. Only you've decided all these things at random.
HAL has money. What you are doing is relying on media reports.
Who knows? Everybody knows criminal cases go on forever in India.
This is not the first time HAL has borrowed money to pay salaries.
HAL's AOP is decided by MOD. get that through your skull. It cannot apportion funds for projects it like on it's own, if it could it could have dumped LCA all together.
They are just design concepts and haven't been built into prototypes or have any amanufacturing lines setup. Without orders none of those will happen which will start with RFP.
Brilliant logic, lets work on this same exact logic, I you start a project on your own personal capacity, IAF should not support it. Unless IAF committed to its Boss that it will buy from your project to fulfill the rest of its requirement. IAF before buying an equipment > usually pays for 70% of the money upfront (Like Dassault) so When you deliver a system that is better than the comparable cots purchase, you should be expecting the RFP, not the payment but the RFP.
No on the flipside, lets say IAF takes an interest in your project and buys stuff worth 17000cr and does not pay for it, what do you do then?
Did IAF sign an agreement that DRAL will supply a set number of Falcons to the IAF? If yes, sure it should get the RFP, right?
Same reason that IAF pays for MKI, Bison upgrades, LCA, LCH, ALH,
Ohh you are very much mistaken, This is very much a MoD sanctioned project that HAL fastracked with its own funds because assholes at Southblock wanted to cut commision out of Bhandari and Co.
No it doesn;tit just owes HAL backpayements in the scale of 17000 cr.
Sure, as it ran out of money, becuase the MoD hasn't Paid for the services availed by the IAF.
No, I am not. I don't know if you are in school or college, but dear, when you lie on your balance sheets, you usually end up going to jail.
You won't find them easily, because DPSUs normally do not wash dirty linen in public, like HAL did.
A lot of times companies leave payments they receive in banks which accrues interests, and during this time they push the deadline of the projects. The longer the payments remain in banks the greater the interests accrued. And they use overdraft facilities to pay for day to day work, like they did now.
So? What's that got to do with the IAF? This is HAL's headache, not the IAF's.
Advanced Hawk is already flying. It's way more ahead in terms of development than HTT-40. And SPORT may be new, but like Hawk it follows an existing design so it's also ahead compared to the HTT-40. It's just an LCA trainer without advanced sensors and weapons.
So, no, they are not concepts.
I would take them to court, not beg them to buy more of my stuff.
IAF has signed nothing with HAL for the HTT-40.
Again, IAF has nothing to do with HTT-40. We could very well be talking about the F-35.
Everything under DPSUs require MoD sanction, that's totally different. This is not an IAF-sanctioned project. Big difference.
It's significantly lesser than that now. A massive payment was made back in March.
Good. I look forward to see many people going to jail then.
off course it is. If IAF Chief works with the MoD Dalal to stop MoD from funding HTT 40, HAL has to drastic measures like spend discretionary funds.
Please show me how many hangars, how many lines for combat hawk or SPORT?
When majority stake in HAL is owned by President of India, it cannot take the same office to Court. That is an unfortunate reality.
IAF can only recommend MoD to sign stuff, even Rafale was not signed by IAF but MoD.
Then where did you come up with the idea that certain number of trainers would be bough from Pilatus and rest of them would be built by HAL, Were you just making that shit up, if not there must have been a MoD document that IAF endorsed lets say back in 2009? ring any bells?
More BS. MoD planned for a split between PC7 and Indigenous trainer from the get go,
And that is not the point, Show me HAL's debt in previous years in the same scale. I have worked for HAL for years, I have never heard of HAL to have to borrow to pay it's salaries. Show me one reference, or one line in it's balance sheet that corroborates your claim.