Sukhoi Su-30MKI

TARGET

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Chinese were planning to export to them.

Lot of stealth aircraft s will be available before we get Amca inducted.
However, with canards in J20, I doubt geometric stealth will be superior to AMCA. If China presents J20 fighters, it must show the quality, which will be sufficient for the UAE and Saudi Arabia. The AMCA in my opinion will be a competitive aircraft with A2A missiles like the SFDR.
 
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Hydra

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However, with canards in J20, I doubt geometric stealth will be superior to AMCA. If China presents J20 fighters, it must show the quality, which will be sufficient for the UAE and Saudi Arabia. The AMCA in my opinion will be a competitive aircraft with A2A missiles like the SFDR.
Man we don't have flying jet, and J20 is an aircraft even getting attentions from Yankees.
 

randomradio

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You may aswell talk about buying JF17 before an F35 offer officially comes. You guys need to see the list of countries F35 has been offered. All are traditional western allies. Allies for which USA will take up a fight.

There's a reason why no F35 for UAE or Saudia.
Allies who will everyday choose USA over any other nation and an attack on USA will be an attack on them.

The US most definitely wants India to operate F-35s, but only on its terms.

GCC won't get F-35s until the Israelis allow it. Or the US is open to selling them the jet.
 

randomradio

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If F35 is not available to UAE, Saudi etc., can these be potential markets for the AMCA? Who would be the potential competitors of AMCA in these markets?

With the GCC, you don't have to compete, you only have to show that you are politically important to them and they will buy whatever best you have. Their militaries are zoos. But let's see what their economy will be like in the timeframe AMCA is ready for exports. I'd definitely say some of them are LCA customers though.
 

randomradio

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However, with canards in J20, I doubt geometric stealth will be superior to AMCA. If China presents J20 fighters, it must show the quality, which will be sufficient for the UAE and Saudi Arabia. The AMCA in my opinion will be a competitive aircraft with A2A missiles like the SFDR.

AMCA is not J-20's competitor, and I'm not flattering the AMCA here. By the time AMCA Mk2 is delivered, the J-20 may not even be in production. So AMCA will have to compare itself with a more advanced J-20 successor.
 
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Ankit Kumar

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The US most definitely wants India to operate F-35s, but only on its terms.

GCC won't get F-35s until the Israelis allow it. Or the US is open to selling them the jet.
Boeing is pushing with both F15 and F18 in MMRCA. Russians despite knowing that this MMRCA is because we don't want to buy their stuff, still are pushing with both Su35 and Mig35.

If what you say was true, MMRCA would have seen atleast both F16 and F35 from LM.
 
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randomradio

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Boeing is pushing with both F15 and F18 in MMRCA. Russians despite knowing that this MMRCA is because we don't want to buy their stuff, still are pushing with both Su35 and Mig35.

If what you say was true, MMRCA would have seen atleast both F16 and F35 from LM.

Boeing can only offer 1 jet, they have to choose which. It's likely that UAC will also be in the same situation, with the merger of Sukhoi and Mig.

One can argue that LM offering the F-35 in lieu of the F-16 would be the same as the Russians offering the Su-57 instead of the Su-35, unless there are restrictions from the IAF's side to participate only with 4th gen jets, which is probably what has happened.

Plus the US doesn't want to provide ToT for the F-35 to India, they have already made that clear. They want a flyaway deal, regardless of numbers.

And it appears MRFA will be the IAF's very last fighter import deal, as per the IAF itself. So let's hope it's true, because it means the Indian industry can finally deliver what's needed. I am holding hope for a 2 squadron NGF tender though, run along the lines of MRCBF, but I feel it's just wishful thinking.
 

Hydra

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Boeing can only offer 1 jet, they have to choose which. It's likely that UAC will also be in the same situation, with the merger of Sukhoi and Mig.

One can argue that LM offering the F-35 in lieu of the F-16 would be the same as the Russians offering the Su-57 instead of the Su-35, unless there are restrictions from the IAF's side to participate only with 4th gen jets, which is probably what has happened.

Plus the US doesn't want to provide ToT for the F-35 to India, they have already made that clear. They want a flyaway deal, regardless of numbers.

And it appears MRFA will be the IAF's very last fighter import deal, as per the IAF itself. So let's hope it's true, because it means the Indian industry can finally deliver what's needed. I am holding hope for a 2 squadron NGF tender though, run along the lines of MRCBF, but I feel it's just wishful thinking.
We don't have any program for an in house fighter jet program for long range heavy fighter replacment for MKI, neither have a program for 150+ kn engine too. So there must a tendering process for heavy class stealth fighter, & it should happen to keep up with the pace as china will have abundant heavy class fighters in their inventory.
 

Ankit Kumar

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We don't have any program for an in house fighter jet program for long range heavy fighter replacment for MKI, neither have a program for 150+ kn engine too. So there must a tendering process for heavy class stealth fighter, & it should happen to keep up with the pace as china will have abundant heavy class fighters in their inventory.
The Su30MKI will start going out from 2045. We will start developing a 35+ Ton MTOW fighter by 2030. 15 years is a good time to develop a replacement.
 

Hydra

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The Su30MKI will start going out from 2045. We will start developing a 35+ Ton MTOW fighter by 2030. 15 years is a good time to develop a replacement.
The SU27 families & F15 Eagles are the only two gen4 heavy fighter operating today, both are using 120-130 kn wet thrust twin engines. The Gen 5 F22 uses a twin 155+ kn engine,& alleged Gen 5 SU 57 is also currently using engines with similar thrust.

If you are designing heavy class fighter,you need engines with similar or more thrust than F22 ,also immense electrical output to power up the future 5+ or 6 gen avionics. I am so confident that we are not capable enough to design such engine by our own even by 2035, I doubt even France too.A collaboration with RR may pave the way to develop such engine on time, but we screwed that possibility by going with France for developing engine for AMCA.

So only viable option is next generation US stealth air superiority fighter, but again US will not sell it to you if we didn't place orders for teen fighters, one of the reason I am asking to induct few squadrons of F15EX with IAF
 

Ankit Kumar

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The SU27 families & F15 Eagles are the only two gen4 heavy fighter operating today, both are using 120-130 kn wet thrust twin engines. The Gen 5 F22 uses a twin 155+ kn engine,& alleged Gen 5 SU 57 is also currently using engines with similar thrust.

If you are designing heavy class fighter,you need engines with similar or more thrust than F22 ,also immense electrical output to power up the future 5+ or 6 gen avionics. I am so confident that we are not capable enough to design such engine by our own even by 2035, I doubt even France too.A collaboration with RR may pave the way to develop such engine on time, but we screwed that possibility by going with France for developing engine for AMCA.

So only viable option is next generation US stealth air superiority fighter, but again US will not sell it to you if we didn't place orders for teen fighters, one of the reason I am asking to induct few squadrons of F15EX with IAF
By the time a 35ton Indian jet will be ready to fly, we will have a suitable powerplant for it.

And French partnership if executed properly will in the worst case scenario ensure that we have a reliable 110kN engine of which we can fully manufacture, overhaul and maintain in India during any crisis, even one which puts France on the opposing side.

I think that chance is worth exploring.

As for Rolls Royce, in past they have been extremely inflexible when it came about an updated adour engine.

For ToT
1. Russians will agree to anything but we will need to spend a lot of time and money to make that ToT work.

2. French will agree for a price. But their ToT will be smooth to absorb and relatively easy to use.

3. Americans will talk and talk.

4. UK and Germans will always look down upon us.
 

Hydra

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By the time a 35ton Indian jet will be ready to fly, we will have a suitable powerplant for it.

And French partnership if executed properly will in the worst case scenario ensure that we have a reliable 110kN engine of which we can fully manufacture, overhaul and maintain in India during any crisis, even one which puts France on the opposing side.

I think that chance is worth exploring.

As for Rolls Royce, in past they have been extremely inflexible when it came about an updated adour engine.

For ToT
1. Russians will agree to anything but we will need to spend a lot of time and money to make that ToT work.

2. French will agree for a price. But their ToT will be smooth to absorb and relatively easy to use.

3. Americans will talk and talk.

4. UK and Germans will always look down upon us.
I strongly beleive,aftrt AMCA done,for us developing a stealth bomber with B2's characteristics will be much easier than developing heavy class fighter, all because it require a massively thrusted engine with immense electrical out. The thrust & electrical requirements of a bomber can be met with four indo safran engines & auxiliary power unit.
 
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Ankit Kumar

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I strongly beleive,aftrt AMCA done,for us developing a stealth bomber with B2's characteristics will be much easier than developing heavy class fighter, all because it require a massively thrusted engine with immense electrical out. The thrust & electrical requirements of a bomber can be met with four indo safran engines & auxiliary power unit.
5 years before we couldn't have had thought of TEDBF. It's useless to think so far ahead. Maybe once the AMCA test bed starts flying we can think of futher plans.
 

Ashwin

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I strongly beleive,aftrt AMCA done,for us developing a stealth bomber with B2's characteristics will be much easier than developing heavy class fighter, all because it require a massively thrusted engine with immense electrical out. The thrust & electrical requirements of a bomber can be met with four indo safran engines & auxiliary power unit.
B2 bomber for IAF :cautious:
 

Hydra

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B2 bomber for IAF :cautious:
Your adversary #1 is already operating strategic bombers, &deployed against you. It may not be as capable as B1 or TU95,still its a threat. Also they are developing a flying wing stealth bomber.

So a bomber fleet for IAF is not an option, rather a necessary, one more thing IAF did operate bomber fleets in past, even during war and yielded. We quietly decommissioned those bombers along with the concept of keeping a dedicated bomber fleet, just how did with mig 25 without inducting a follow on intercepter Mig31.

I see only reason why we are staying away from Bomber fleet is the fund requirements for capital investment, not the lack of operational necessity.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Your adversary #1 is already operating strategic bombers, &deployed against you. It may not be as capable as B1 or TU95,still its a threat. Also they are developing a flying wing stealth bomber.

So a bomber fleet for IAF is not an option, rather a necessary, one more thing IAF did operate bomber fleets in past, even during war and yielded. We quietly decommissioned those bombers along with the concept of keeping a dedicated bomber fleet, just how did with mig 25 without inducting a follow on intercepter Mig31.

I see only reason why we are staying away from Bomber fleet is the fund requirements for capital investment, not the lack of operational necessity.
We should aim at something like what a combined UK+French force will have in capabilities.

Reach that milestone first. Then look for other additions.
 

randomradio

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We don't have any program for an in house fighter jet program for long range heavy fighter replacment for MKI, neither have a program for 150+ kn engine too. So there must a tendering process for heavy class stealth fighter, & it should happen to keep up with the pace as china will have abundant heavy class fighters in their inventory.

An MKI replacement program should begin by the time AMCA is ready. My estimate is 2030-35 for a new program, with induction planned from 2045-50.