Sukhoi Su-30MKI

Rajput Lion said:
Here you can see new RAM composite panel that is scheduled to replace the metal panels:

View attachment 51203

Source of the image: I D R W

This picture surfaced during Rajnath Singh's visit at HAL Nashik during last October. Why would HAL highlight this if this was already certified years ago? Fact is, we will replace entire Al-alloy metal panels with RAM composite ones. This thing has baked in stealth and is supposedly made of CNT fibremat(with broadband RF absorption properties). MKI's RCS is substantially going to drop ones we implement this upgrade to entire fleet.
Click to expand...

At our current speed of implementation, Su 30 mki is the new Jaguar.
First batch retire
Second batch partial upgrade
Third batch still thinking about engine upgrade..
If we get Su 57, we ll replace many Su 30 mki without upgrade saying no maws daws ..less power from engine etc ..
 
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Sathya said:
At our current speed of implementation, Su 30 mki is the new Jaguar.
First batch retire
Second batch partial upgrade
Third batch still thinking about engine upgrade..
If we get Su 57, we ll replace many Su 30 mki without upgrade saying no maws daws ..less power from engine etc ..
Click to expand...

Tbh, the IAF has been integrating new kit like DR-118 RWR, SDR and weapons like Astra, Asraam and R1/R2 on the MKI for a while now. Structural and sensor upgrades will likely come last. For one, the new aesa and IRST are both under development with a PDC of 2031 for the radar, iirc.

This is the gap that Russia is now trying to exploit with a solution derived from Su-35SM. I'm hoping the IAF BRDs will be able to use HAL supplied kits to upgrade MKI airframes during routine maintainance/overhauls in due course.
 
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Speedster1 said:
Tbh, the IAF has been integrating new kit like DR-118 RWR, SDR and weapons like Astra, Asraam and R1/R2 on the MKI for a while now. Structural and sensor upgrades will likely come last. For one, the new aesa and IRST are both under development with a PDC of 2031 for the radar, iirc.

This is the gap that Russia is now trying to exploit with a solution derived from Su-35SM. I'm hoping the IAF BRDs will be able to use HAL supplied kits to upgrade MKI airframes during routine maintainance/overhauls in due course.
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MKIs continue to get cutting-edge upgrades all-the -time, being our number one strategic/tactical asset. Now IAF wants 11 BRD to break the Russian source Code barrier through a Weapons Integration Tester(WIT) and integrate all the European and Israeli weapons without any Russian assistance in loop.

All the pessimism regarding MKI is completely unfounded.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
MKIs continue to get cutting-edge upgrades all-the -time, being our number one strategic/tactical asset. Now IAF wants 11 BRD to break the Russian sourve Code barrier through a Weapons Integration Tester(WIT) and integrate all the European and Israeli weapons without any Russian assistance in loop.

All the pessimism regarding MKI is completely unfounded.
Click to expand...

I highly doubt the Russians are being looped in for third-party weapons integration on the MKI anyway, esp since Ukraine. IAF SDI and 11 BRD do most of the work in-house to comply w/contractor specified opsec aimed at preventing tech leaks.

The IAF has stalled MKI UPG for years, hoping to buy more Rafales. No signs of any progress even now. Just for context, the IAF first began discussing an MKI upgrade in 2006.

Otoh, the PLAAF is upgrading even its older J-11s (Su-27s) to near J-16 standard.

 
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Speedster1 said:
I highly doubt the Russians are being looped in for third-party weapons integration on the MKI anyway, esp since Ukraine. IAF SDI and 11 BRD do most of the work in-house to comply w/contractor specified opsec aimed at preventing tech leaks.

The IAF has stalled MKI UPG for years, hoping to buy more Rafales. No signs of any progress even now. Just for context, the IAF first began discussing an MKI upgrade in 2006.

Otoh, the PLAAF is upgrading even its older J-11s (Su-27s) to near J-16 standard.

Click to expand...
Russians opposed integration of I-Derby ER, ASRAAM, METEOR etc. With this new framework, we'll junk them out completely and will quickly integrate any weapon we may like on MKI.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Russians opposed integration of I-Derby ER, ASRAAM, METEOR etc. With this new framework, we'll junk them out completely and will quickly integrate any weapon we may like on MKI.
Click to expand...

IAF SDI already has ground based avionics and weapons integration rigs for the MKI. The new tool you're referring to likely plugs into it.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Here you can see new RAM composite panel that is scheduled to replace the metal panels:

View attachment 51203

Source of the image: I D R W

This picture surfaced during Rajnath Singh's visit at HAL Nashik during last October. Why would HAL highlight this if this was already certified years ago? Fact is, we will replace entire Al-alloy metal panels with RAM composite ones. This thing has baked in stealth and is supposedly made of CNT fibremat(with broadband RF absorption properties). MKI's RCS is substantially going to drop ones we implement this upgrade to entire fleet.
Click to expand...

RAM, yes. But not RAS.

RAS is entirely diffferent, it carries the RAM panel within the composite, not externally. This is the usual RAM that the original MKI did not come with.

Simply put, RAS is not visible, but RAM is visible. And you can see it here, so that's fine as per the Russians.

The RCS won't drop much. The overall goal is probably 1-2 m2 versus 2-3 m2 of the Su-35S against the current 4-12 m2 on MKI.
 
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randomradio said:
RAM, yes. But not RAS.

RAS is entirely diffferent, it carries the RAM panel within the composite, not externally. This is the usual RAM that the original MKI did not come with.

Simply put, RAS is not visible, but RAM is visible. And you can see it here, so that's fine as per the Russians.

The RCS won't drop much. The overall goal is probably 1-2 m2 versus 2-3 m2 of the Su-35S against the current 4-12 m2 on MKI.
Click to expand...
The RAM panel which was displayed could even be load bearing 'cause normal RAM is in form of a thin coating of usually nano-ferrites, but the HAL displayed panel was much thicker and multi-layered. Look closely. So it could easily pass off as RAS.

Target RCS is 0.1m2 with full air-to-air load. It may look impossible now, but we may have a trick to achieve that;)
 
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Rajput Lion said:
The RAM panel which was displayed could even be load bearing 'cause normal RAM is in form of a thin coating of usually nano-ferrites, but the HAL displayed panel was much thicker and multi-layered. Look closely. So it could easily pass off as RAS.
Click to expand...

The one in the pic is RAM. It's for intakes, canards, and leading edges, maybe some other areas.

For load-bearing surfaces, we have a RAS laminate from CSIR-NAL called NiRala, but there's no confirmation of where it will be used. It's likely being developed for AMCA and Ghatak. It's still quite some time away from becoming operational. It can't be used on MKI without it becoming a major change requring recertification.

CSIR-NAL's Adrishya RAM is being used on LCA.

MKI's RAM has been developed by DLJ. It's just RAM that is based on polyurethane.

Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur has developed Polyurethane based Radar absorbing Paint using magnetic functional filler material for application on strategic targets for RCS reduction. The magnetic functional filler material with specific size and shape has been used in appropriate ratio in resin matrix to obtain maximum radar absorption properties.

Rajput Lion said:
Target RCS is 0.1m2 with full air-to-air load. It may look impossible now, but we may have a trick to achieve that;)
Click to expand...

It's practically impossible to achieve that without a full redesign of the front fuselage, effectively making it a new jet. It can't be done on existing MKIs. The target RCS is 1-2 m2, it's just an upgrade.

The goal is to bring down detection range by half from its peak, as they did on the Su-35S.
 
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randomradio said:
The one in the pic is RAM. It's for intakes, canards, and leading edges, maybe some other areas.

For load-bearing surfaces, we have a RAS laminate from CSIR-NAL called NiRala, but there's no confirmation of where it will be used. It's likely being developed for AMCA and Ghatak. It's still quite some time away from becoming operational. It can't be used on MKI without it becoming a major change requring recertification.

CSIR-NAL's Adrishya RAM is being used on LCA.

MKI's RAM has been developed by DLJ. It's just RAM that is based on polyurethane.

Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur has developed Polyurethane based Radar absorbing Paint using magnetic functional filler material for application on strategic targets for RCS reduction. The magnetic functional filler material with specific size and shape has been used in appropriate ratio in resin matrix to obtain maximum radar absorption properties.



It's practically impossible to achieve that without a full redesign of the front fuselage, effectively making it a new jet. It can't be done on existing MKIs. The target RCS is 1-2 m2, it's just an upgrade.

The goal is to bring down detectio
Click to expand...

Rajput Lion said:
The RAM panel which was displayed could even be load bearing 'cause normal RAM is in form of a thin coating of usually nano-ferrites, but the HAL displayed panel was much thicker and multi-layered. Look closely. So it could easily pass off as RAS.

Target RCS is 0.1m2 with full air-to-air load. It may look impossible now, but we may have a trick to achieve that;)
Click to expand...
What about air intake ? how would they fix it bcz the front fan blades (compressor blades) of a jet engine are one of the most significant sources of radar reflection on a fighter jet
 
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sahil singh said:
What about air intake ? how would they fix it bcz the front fan blades (compressor blades) of a jet engine are one of the most significant sources of radar reflection on a fighter jet
Click to expand...

That's the problem, it cannot be fixed.

The RAM can reduce radar returns in the X band by 10 dB, that's about it. It's good enough to reduce detection range by half and improve EA's burn-through resistance.

Other RO jets use radar blockers, but that's too big of a change for MKI. If it was possible, the Russians would have done it by now on their Flankers.
 
randomradio said:
The one in the pic is RAM. It's for intakes, canards, and leading edges, maybe some other areas.

For load-bearing surfaces, we have a RAS laminate from CSIR-NAL called NiRala, but there's no confirmation of where it will be used. It's likely being developed for AMCA and Ghatak. It's still quite some time away from becoming operational. It can't be used on MKI without it becoming a major change requring recertification.

CSIR-NAL's Adrishya RAM is being used on LCA.

MKI's RAM has been developed by DLJ. It's just RAM that is based on polyurethane.

Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur has developed Polyurethane based Radar absorbing Paint using magnetic functional filler material for application on strategic targets for RCS reduction. The magnetic functional filler material with specific size and shape has been used in appropriate ratio in resin matrix to obtain maximum radar absorption properties.
Click to expand...
We have developed plenty of RAM/RAS for MKI. The RAM panel which I posted is supposed to replace entire AI-alloy skin fairings with these composite ones. And AFAIK, these RAM panels use CNT fibremat with baked in stealth to absorb wideband RF waves from 0.1MHz to 60GHz. And we have developed even meta-materials based RAP which almost absorbs 99% RF waves in a wide spectrum.
randomradio said:
It's practically impossible to achieve that without a full redesign of the front fuselage, effectively making it a new jet. It can't be done on existing MKIs. The target RCS is 1-2 m2, it's just an upgrade.

The goal is to bring down detection range by half from its peak, as they did on the Su-35S.
Click to expand...
The goal is to make MKI LO with modern RAM, RAS & RAP. Rest, just feel free to disagree👍
sahil singh said:
What about air intake ? how would they fix it bcz the front fan blades (compressor blades) of a jet engine are one of the most significant sources of radar reflection on a fighter jet
Click to expand...
We have developed plethora of RAM, RAP & RAS, some even metamaterials based which absorb almost 99% RF waves in a wide spectrum. Used in front of the engine intakes and compressor face, MKI's RCS is going down in order of magnitudes from what it is now. Some of the metamaterial RAP that we have developed is almost a black hole for EM waves.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
We have developed plenty of RAM/RAS for MKI. The RAM panel which I posted is supposed to replace entire AI-alloy skin fairings with these composite ones. And AFAIK, these RAM panels use CNT fibremat with baked in stealth to absorb wideband RF waves from 0.1MHz to 60GHz. And we have developed even meta-materials based RAP which almost absorbs 99% RF waves in a wide spectrum.

The goal is to make MKI LO with modern RAM, RAS & RAP. Rest, just feel free to disagree👍

We have developed plethora of RAM, RAP & RAS, some even metamaterials based which absorb almost 99% RF waves in a wide spectrum. Used in front of the engine intakes and compressor face, MKI's RCS is going down in order of magnitudes from what it is now. Some of the metamaterial RAP that we have developed is almost a black hole for EM waves.
Click to expand...
The fan blades of the Su-30 MKI are clearly visible from the front; while this might reduce the rf waves reflections but it won't be as effective as you are claiming.
 
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sahil singh said:
The fan blades of the Su-30 MKI are clearly visible from the front; while this might reduce the rf waves reflections but it won't be as effective as you are claiming.
Click to expand...
Way back in early 2000s, Russians developed specific RAM coatings for inlet fans of old Su-35(Su-27M), which cut its frontal RCS by -10dB to -20dB. Our coatings are not one or two but several generations more advance('Nuff said). Rest, as I said earlier, feel free to disagree👍.
 
Rajput Lion said:
Way back in early 2000s, Russians developed specific RAM coatings for inlet fans of old Su-35(Su-27M), which cut its frontal RCS by -10dB to -20dB. Our coatings are not one or two but several generations more advance('Nuff said). Rest, as I said earlier, feel free to disagree👍.
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Can you share the source you are claiming about su 27M?
 
babablacksheep said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/2020644947511370057
https://twitter.com/x/status/1750329154514669776

Read the whole thread on X, to get a good idea.

View attachment 51265
Click to expand...
Thanks for this thread


According to this thread, The rcs reduction treatment of the airframe includes
-Bandpass radome
-Gold/conductive canopy and IRST coating

- inlet guidevane are treated. The material are 6mm of Absorber composite with "beehive" core + 1 mm Barium Hexaferrite paint.Number and graphical wise show further differences between Treated and untreated airframe.

That reduction of about 6 dB in average of all frequencies can be achieved. But they claimed that using only RAM coatings on the inlet fans reduced frontal RCS by -10 dB to -20 dB; so I asked about the source.
 
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Here is my old post regarding Sukhoi/ITAE RCS reduction program initiated in 2003: Sukhoi Su-30MKI

What DRDO has developed is way beyond the scope of what Russians achieved in 2003. Our metamaterial based stealth tech is more advance than what most assume. Anyways, no more from me about this topic. Agree or disagree, to each his own👍
 
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