Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

Yes, we're getting the real deal and after years of long wait, MKI is finally getting a BVR which suits its "Air-Dominance Fighter" moniker and from what I have heard is that IAF is pushing for a max load of 8 R-37M per MKI. Bear in mind that current Flankers carry 2 R-37M as standard configuration load.

8 missiles will turn it into a dog. These are 500 kg missiles, it won't even go supersonic at that point. The inlet tunnel is the only place the jet can carry missiles and still stay supersonic on the Su-35, similar to below.



SM2 has been observed to carry 3 missiles. 2 in tunnel, 1 underwing. But definitely loses points in performance.


It's unclear if MKI will be able to operationally employ more than 2 missiles without sacrificing speed and agility. But if all it has to do is be a subsonic bomb truck, then 8 are possible. Su-35 and SM/SM2 at least have higher thrust engines.

USAF had once pointed out that the F-35A's acceleration will be far superior to the MKI's when carrying 6 AMRAAM-class missiles along with 2 WVR. So being beaten by the F-35A doesn't make things impressive for the MKI, and it will be worse with R-37M.

But both Su-35 and SM have only been observed with not more than 1 or 2 missiles over Ukraine. So real operational limit is the ones on the fuselage.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Worth it considering our flankers are sitting ducks against j-10's and j-16's and even j-20's.
Recent conflicts has proved that stealth is not as effective as previously assumed and a longer stick compensates for lack of stealth.
We infact need Astra Mk-3 and skysting integrated to the mki as soon as possible same for the rafale.

Yeah , great going isn't it ? Yet before last year's 4 day long skirmish I never saw any articles suggesting IAF was about to import R-37 M .

It took a Paxtan to wake IAF up from its slumber just as it took a Paxtan to wake up the IAF earlier towards expediting procurement of the SDR & other missiles after Operation Swift Retort all the way back in 2019 .

Makes you wonder if these low hanging fruits aren't picked off the tree soon enough & the big ticket acquisitions like the Rafale , MKI upgradation etc have been languishing since ages with the IAF not interested in partnering HAL in either development of the HTSE or HTFE or CATS Warrior or have any policy whatsoever on CCAs ( at least I've not come across any in public ) what exactly are these phuckers upto ?

To stretch the point of the Paxtanis mistaking tactics for strategy there were those attacks on the AFB Pathankot where "suddenly" the IAF was made aware of the vulnerabilities of their most vital assets & perimeter security which was to be enhanced , is still WiP - Work in Progress after all these years.

Ditto for Iranian Drone attacks on US AFB in the ME reinforcing calls within for strengthening security at AFBs vis a vis drones & we still don't have a clue if earlier programs enhancing perimeter security at AFBs have been implemented & as such audited to check for effectiveness as well as efficiency.

Then there's the old pending issue of equipping all our AFBs or at least the front line ones with HAS although in this day & age especially with what we've seen happening in Ukraine & now the Iran war how safe are AFBs in the hinterland is another question altogether ? I could go on ..

And this Air Force is supposed to go up against PLAAF shortly. Would be real fun to watch if the IAF was a foreign AF .

 

[lmaoxd]

Yes, we're getting the real deal and after years of long wait, MKI is finally getting a BVR which suits its "Air-Dominance Fighter" moniker and from what I have heard is that IAF is pushing for a max load of 8 R-37M per MKI. Bear in mind that current Flankers carry 2 R-37M as standard configuration load.

Regarding 100 Su-30MKIs? No. IAF doesn't want more MKIs, they want more Rafale not because they think MKI is inferior to Rafale but because they think they are already too top heavy. So maybe they'll order 20-40 more at max and that's about it. Other reason IAF is not interested in 100 more MKIs is this: Su-57.

Regarding Su-57? Putin came last year to India for specifically selling Su-57 to us. Since nothing was announced, people assumed that no deal was reached. Yet on the contrary, multiple offers in principle regarding Su-57 was agreed upon by both India and Russia. And looks like we'll be directly procuring 40(to 60) jets from Russia while assembling 100(to 140) 2-seat jets at HAL Nashik. So overall we'll have around 140-200 Su-57/60 till 2035-40, which is a good number to counter PLAAF 1000+ 5th gen fighter fleet(the 2035 estimation).

That's our plan for now.

mate. I agree with the rafale thing but we literally havent gotten any confirmation for the gov on the su57 apart from HAL. Plus the ukraine war is a major issue. Do we even have enough money to support tejasmk1a(13B for 180), tejas mk2(13B ish for 120), rafale(32B for 114), AMCA(dont know but assume an avg of 120-140M per), and su57(120M per)?

 

[Rajput Lion]

mate. I agree with the rafale thing but we literally havent gotten any confirmation for the gov on the su57 apart from HAL.

You have a confirmation, 'cause @Rajput Lion aka "The Oracle" of our forum said so

In all seriousness though, yes we indeed have money and need for LCA MK2, Rafale, AMCA & Su-57 in big numbers looking at how our number one enemy China is expanding its 5th gen fleet and rapidly transitioning towards 6th gen combat fleet. Time for jokes is over, IAF needs both quantity and quality along with being on time. This is what makes Su-57/60 imperative for us. Period.

 

[Lolwa]

IAF doesn't want more MKIs, they want more Rafale not because they think MKI is inferior to Rafale but because they think they are already too top heavy. So maybe they'll order 20-40 more at max and that's about it. Other reason IAF is not interested in 100 more MKIs is this: Su-57.

The IAF literally needs around 500 flankers to handle both Pakistan and China. We are facing a total of 700 flankers from China and 500 j-10 with a 100 j-10C's more from Pakistan in the future. We need a minimum of 350 flankers to maintain positive deterrence. That is apart from 250 rafales we actually need. 150 rafale is good enough.
The su-57 requirement needs to 220 atleast since presently China has 300+ j-20's. In the future the Chinese will be producing upto 1000 j-20's.
We will have to create huge airspace ecosystem in India with the Russians and French. We have no choice left.
The IAF is delusional if it thinks 200 flankers can fulfill our nation's security requirement. We need to join fcas/GCAp too. We are just badly positioned. The Tejas is just a glorified CAS until the mk1a doesn't come integrated with the skysting.
The calculations have changed completely since the Iran war.
We also need the s-500/550, David's sling and Kusha AD as soon as possible.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The IAF literally needs around 500 flankers to handle both Pakistan and China. We are facing a total of 700 flankers from China and 500 j-10 with a 100 j-10C's more from Pakistan in the future. We need a minimum of 350 flankers to maintain positive deterrence. That is apart from 250 rafales we actually need. 150 rafale is good enough.
The su-57 requirement needs to 220 atleast since presently China has 300+ j-20's. In the future the Chinese will be producing upto 1000 j-20's.
We will have to create huge airspace ecosystem in India with the Russians and French. We have no choice left.
The IAF is delusional if it thinks 200 flankers can fulfill our nation's security requirement. We need to join fcas/GCAp too. We are just badly positioned. The Tejas is just a glorified CAS until the mk1a doesn't come integrated with the skysting.
The calculations have changed completely

I noticed there's no mention of the F-15 in this wishlist. Previously you seemed to have demanded we go in for anywhere between 150-250 F-15 . Is that requirement cancelled or modified ?

 

[Lolwa]

I noticed there's no mention of the F-15 in this wishlist. Previously you seemed to have demanded we go in for anywhere between 150-250 F-15 . Is that requirement cancelled or modified ?

No f-15 is useless now. I was wishing that the 114 order went to f-15EX but after the whole Tejas mk1 program being beholden to the ge-404 and our policy failure of not license producing the ge-404in20 in India(which is the most foolish thing I have ever seen since Kaveri has been shown no interest by the IAF)
I don't want the f-15EX and as rafale as been selected as our mmrca. Id prefer we produce over 300-400 of them and make it our replacement for the Jaguar, Mirage, mig 23 and Mig-29. What I would still wish would be for 2 squadrons of EA-18G Growler with the NGJ and 54 F-35A's as Jaziya to the Americans. The f-15 has become irrelevant since we have procured the r-37m. We really need Virupaksha based super sukhoi series being manufacture by HAL and 100 examples of them.
We need su-57 and 272 Su-57-su60 should be our requirement

 

[lmaoxd]

The IAF literally needs around 500 flankers to handle both Pakistan and China. We are facing a total of 700 flankers from China and 500 j-10 with a 100 j-10C's more from Pakistan in the future. We need a minimum of 350 flankers to maintain positive deterrence. That is apart from 250 rafales we actually need. 150 rafale is good enough.
The su-57 requirement needs to 220 atleast since presently China has 300+ j-20's. In the future the Chinese will be producing upto 1000 j-20's.
We will have to create huge airspace ecosystem in India with the Russians and French. We have no choice left.
The IAF is delusional if it thinks 200 flankers can fulfill our nation's security requirement. We need to join fcas/GCAp too. We are just badly positioned. The Tejas is just a glorified CAS until the mk1a doesn't come integrated with the skysting.
The calculations have changed completely since the Iran war.
We also need the s-500/550, David's sling and Kusha AD as soon as possible.

500 flankers with the old kit wont help us.

We need 200-272 upgraded su30MKIs to be our heavy 4.5 gen air superiority fighters/heavy bombers. 200 ish tejas mk2(can carry everything apart from the full scale brahmos, rudram-3 idk but its similar in weight to the brahmos NG so i assume the mk2 can carry it) and the 180 tejas mk1a(can bascically replace the jaguar and mig 21,23 for everything apart from low level flight(which is insanely dangerous with the proliferation of MANPADs, we saw it worked out in iran). the rafales would be Our heavy version of the tejas mk2. I doubt it would go over the 149 limit.

We dont need to buy more su30s, just need to retrofit all the newer su30s with the upgraded avionics. even 200 would be enough. The mk1a(12B total), mk2(at least another 13B total for 120 jets, near 18B for 200 jets)). The rafale deal REALLY eats into our finances at 32B for just 114 jets.

the su57s(if we ever buy any) would cost 140M each.(yes it would be cheaper than the rafale by quite a lot and yet at the same time be a objectively superior jet in almost every single way)
AMCA would cost around the same at 140M lifetime.

So we would have 180 tejas mk1a(12B total) + 200 tejas mk2 (17B total) + 200 su30mki(upgraded). . This is nearly is certain. 35 rafales also exist today. 34 squadrons in total.

Now what is uncertain is 114 additional rafales(until pen is put to paper Im not counting it), Su57s(completely depends on the russo-ukraine war and other factors) and the amount of AMCA(current is 126 but it will almost certainly expand to 200). We might have a growing economy but whether our economy is big enough to support all this on top of transport and missiles etc is something Im not very sure about. Lets see.

 

[Lolwa]

500 flankers with the old kit wont help us.

I never said for old mki's. I want 500 flankers all to super sukhoi standard or atleast a partial fleet to be in super sukhi standard.
The thing with flankers is that the design is timeless and is basically a mini bomber and missile carrier and it can just be perpetually upgraded with new radars and engine and electronics. Plus it has enough capacity and range to carry any kind of munition. The flanker can be literally used for the next 100 years it's a design that is in the class of the b-52 stratofortress in terms of flexibility.
We presently have 260 flankers. We need to keep the Nashik plant going in any case. It's better we invest and expand it and create 2-3 manufacturing lines of the su-30mki and su-57. Just base it all in the al-41f1 till the Russians mature the al-51.
As much as I want rafale in the medium fighter role we need to move on su-57/60. Algeria has already procured it and r-37m creates a huge advantage when paired with su-57 low RCS. What we need is Netra and datalink kill chain combined with s-400 and s-500.
Also the Chinese will use their rocket force(with iranians giving them confidence) so we need anti-ballistic missile capability in numbers.

 

[Lolwa]

The rafale deal REALLY eats into our finances at 32B for just 114 jets.

We have a huge forex and if we are wasting 32B on the rafale so let's make sure that the engine is being produced here and we need to join hands with French on codevelopment and weapons integration of the rafale and the FCAS.
Tbh if we invest 30 billion dollar in our industry with 10 billion dollar each distributed to mk2, tedbf and AMCA and 2 billion dollars on Kaveri development we could solve our aerospace issues considerably.

 

[lmaoxd]

We have a huge forex and if we are wasting 32B on the rafale so let's make sure that the engine is being produced here and we need to join hands with French on codevelopment and weapons integration of the rafale and the FCAS.
Tbh if we invest 30 billion dollar in our industry with 10 billion dollar each distributed to mk2, tedbf and AMCA and 2 billion dollars on Kaveri development we could solve our aerospace issues considerably.

India doesnt use the FOREX reserves on defence.

 

[lmaoxd]

I never said for old mki's. I want 500 flankers all to super sukhoi standard or atleast a partial fleet to be in super sukhi standard.
The thing with flankers is that the design is timeless and is basically a mini bomber and missile carrier and it can just be perpetually upgraded with new radars and engine and electronics. Plus it has enough capacity and range to carry any kind of munition. The flanker can be literally used for the next 100 years it's a design that is in the class of the b-52 stratofortress in terms of flexibility.
We presently have 260 flankers. We need to keep the Nashik plant going in any case. It's better we invest and expand it and create 2-3 manufacturing lines of the su-30mki and su-57. Just base it all in the al-41f1 till the Russians mature the al-51.
As much as I want rafale in the medium fighter role we need to move on su-57/60. Algeria has already procured it and r-37m creates a huge advantage when paired with su-57 low RCS. What we need is Netra and datalink kill chain combined with s-400 and s-500.
Also the Chinese will use their rocket force(with iranians giving them confidence) so we need anti-ballistic missile capability in numbers.

we dont need 500 flanker and simply cannot afford that many. The flanker cannot handle more than 6k hours of flight even after upgrade. Its not B52 class. stop saying randomn BS.

As for AD and missiles, yea we need more and BDL has established and is building even more factories so that should be decently covered, we need the kusha for our own s400/s500 class.

As for AWACS, we have the additional netra mk1a and the mk2 program. There is also the miniaturization of the uttam into a pod to be carried on MALE class drones which also provide small scale awacs like capability.

 

[Lolwa]

Its not B52 class. stop saying randomn BS.

You just can introduce better materials to increase flying hours of an aircraft. The f-15EX upgrade gave it 20000hrs flying. It's random bs for you because you don't have the vision and are regurgitating whatever slop the hivemind tells you to speak. The IAF had a fleet of 800 mig 21's with 250+ mig 23 and mig 27's. They flew that for around 40+ years.
The defence budget can easily be pushed to 5% of GDP and the armed forces can be expanded but gujju baniya has to save money for ladli behen and other socialist schemes.
We can easily afford 500 flankers when the Chinese had a far bigger air force with proper bombers.
The flanker is literally a mini bomber giving tu-22 tier capabilities at quarter of its price.
If the IAF can't have proper bombers it should be prerogative of the IAF for getting 350-500 flankers to face Uncle Sam and China.

India doesnt use the FOREX reserves on defence.

Then it should

 

[screambowl]

8 missiles will turn it into a dog.

Doesn't need to carry 8 similar cookies. The combo will be 2 R37M and 2 Astra mk1 and 2 Derby/2Mica. I am more into knowing about if two different missiles with similar range and kill probability but different turn ratio and speed if fired upon a single target increases the kill probability?

 

[randomradio]

Doesn't need to carry 8 similar cookies. The combo will be 2 R37M and 2 Astra mk1 and 2 Derby/2Mica. I am more into knowing about if two different missiles with similar range and kill probability but different turn ratio and speed if fired upon a single target increases the kill probability?

Yeah, pretty much standard load, 2 LRs + 2 MRs + 2 SRs + 2 wingtip EW pods.

 

[randomradio]

You just can introduce better materials to increase flying hours of an aircraft.

Not allowed by Russia, also the reason why we couldn't simply buy more MKIs. The Russians are not very flexible.

 

[Lolwa]

Not allowed by Russia, also the reason why we couldn't simply buy more MKIs. The Russians are not very flexible.

The Russians literally gave us nuclear submarines and missile tech. They literally gave ICBM's to North Korea. I'm sure the Russians won't mind is improving the material tech on the su-30mki with more composites and better materials. Keep in mind that the Chinese were sold the su-35 after they had reverse engineered the j-11 and j-16

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Russians literally gave us nuclear submarines and missile tech. They literally gave ICBM's to North Korea. I'm sure the Russians won't mind is improving the material tech on the su-30mki with more composites and better materials. Keep in mind that the Chinese were sold the su-35 after they had reverse engineered the j-11 and j-16

DRDO is already replacing Metal Panels with RAS composite panels in MKI as we speak. It was also part of the deal right from the beginning. We even replaced metal parts of Mig-21 with composites and dropped its RCS from 3m2 to 0.3m2.

 

[randomradio]

The Russians literally gave us nuclear submarines and missile tech. They literally gave ICBM's to North Korea. I'm sure the Russians won't mind is improving the material tech on the su-30mki with more composites and better materials. Keep in mind that the Chinese were sold the su-35 after they had reverse engineered the j-11 and j-16

They denied it for India's MKI.

DRDO is already replacing Metal Panels with RAS composite panels in MKI as we speak. It was also part of the deal right from the beginning. We even replaced metal parts of Mig-21 with composites and dropped its RCS from 3m2 to 0.3m2.

All the composites that we were allowed has already been done. MKI has no RAS and no plans for any new RAS for phase 1 MLU either. Adding RAS would require flight testing and recertification, so it won't be done. And there are no composites in structural parts, only non-critical control surfaces and a few other areas.

We can't make any changes to the airframe on our own. The Russians have threatened to withdraw certification.

Mig-21's RCS wasn't reduced to 0.3m2 in India, it was a special program in Russia using RAM, but wasn't applied on Indian Bisons. Our jets had the standard RCS.

 

[Rajput Lion]

All the composites that we were allowed has already been done. MKI has no RAS and no plans for any new RAS for phase 1 MLU either. Adding RAS would require flight testing and recertification, so it won't be done. And there are no composites in structural parts, only non-critical control surfaces and a few other areas.

We can't make any changes to the airframe on our own. The Russians have threatened to withdraw certification.

Mig-21's RCS wasn't reduced to 0.3m2 in India, it was a special program in Russia using RAM, but wasn't applied on Indian Bisons. Our jets had the standard RCS.

Here you can see new RAM composite panel that is scheduled to replace the metal panels:



Source of the image: I D R W

This picture surfaced during Rajnath Singh's visit at HAL Nashik during last October. Why would HAL highlight this if this was already certified years ago? Fact is, we will replace entire Al-alloy metal panels with RAM composite ones. This thing has baked in stealth and is supposedly made of CNT fibremat(with broadband RF absorption properties). MKI's RCS is substantially going to drop ones we implement this upgrade to entire fleet.