Sukhoi Su-30MKI

If I didn't know better I'd say it has all the imprint of the AL-51 all over it . Or at least it's benefitted quite a lot from that program.

We have ToT for Al 31 so refusing to upgrade to Al 41 to have more autonomy.
We ordered around 250 engines recently and even produced few.

Will we change the engines paying additional amount for ToT or will we lose autonomy without tot..

Mig 29 also same, we Just paid for RD engines.. Platform also won't be in service more than 10 years.


And we also don't have indigenous programs based on Russian engine to use anywhere else.
 
If I didn't know better I'd say it has all the imprint of the AL-51 all over it . Or at least it's benefitted quite a lot from that program.
Yep. Borrows heavily from the Al-51.

Russia's UEC unveils a new engine based on the Al-31/41 family of engines:
View attachment 37846
This engine will feature a new fan. Improved engine life. Increased mean time between overhauls. 4 engines have been manufactured for testing. Will be compatible will all fighters using the Al-31/41 engines.

Potential candidate for engine upgrade if India decides to go for it.
1731135510015.png

This is the full-sized mockup of this engine.
 
We have ToT for Al 31 so refusing to upgrade to Al 41 to have more autonomy.
We ordered around 250 engines recently and even produced few.

Will we change the engines paying additional amount for ToT or will we lose autonomy without tot..

Mig 29 also same, we Just paid for RD engines.. Platform also won't be in service more than 10 years.


And we also don't have indigenous programs based on Russian engine to use anywhere else.
IAF has already made a decision. Order for 250 nos AL-31FP given & for RD-33 for the MiG -29 fleet recently. The latter is not going to be with us for more than 10-15 years . The former shouldn't be with us for more than 40 years.

It's based on these calculations that the IAF must've taken the decision they have . Rest assured the Russians would first inform the IAF of any new development , hence they must've long informed us of this new TF. In all likelihood the same must've been evaluated too at least in a preliminary manner by the IAF.

Secondly all Russian claims ought to be taken with a pinch of salt even otherwise more so now when their economy is troubled & they've practically lost the export market for their defence products for one reason or another .

That Vijainder Singh is a Russian stooge . Take whatever he says with a pinch of salt.
 

He seems to suggest to suggest that the J-10 will be equipped with the new Series 5 TF. If that is indeed the case, it should tell you the tale of Chinese TFs . However there seems to be no independent corroboration for this piece of news.
 
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IAF has already made a decision. Order for 250 nos AL-31FP given & for RD-33 for the MiG -29 fleet recently. The latter is not going to be with us for more than 10-15 years . The former shouldn't be with us for more than 40 years.
Quite sure the su30 fleet will be there till at least 2055. After that, perhaps gradual phasing out. I am curious about what they plan to replace this with, 5th gen or higher are always high cost affair so won't replace the full fleet size. So which economic solution they plan to take wrt the twin engine air superiority fighters. Of course they have to lean back on high spec 4th gen upgraded options to sustain nos in some way, now which jet would that be, a rafale local prod or a rus option finally again .
 
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Quite sure the su30 fleet will be there till at least 2055.
Difference between should & would. They should be retiring it in 40 years from date of induction vs they WILL retire it in 50 -55 years & risk the MiG -21 saga once again.

I'm with the @Ankit Kumar line of thinking here . Never use a piece of Russian equipment for more time than the Russians themselves use it especially if we follow a doctrine of extensive training NATO style on Russian equipment built as they are for a limited lifespan with extensive maintenance , the philosophy being low CAPEX & medium to high OPEX , the very opposite of western philosophy for their defence equipment.

Should also explain the reason the former SU went in for the kind of quantities they did . Apart from a vast land mass & "Quantity " being a "Quality" of its own , it also conformed to their training philosophy. No surprises China's following the same philosophy whereas Russians are struggling with it for years due to economic issues.

After that, perhaps gradual phasing out. I am curious about what they plan to replace this with, 5th gen or higher are always high cost affair so won't replace the full fleet size. So which economic solution they plan to take wrt the twin engine air superiority fighters. Of course they have to lean back on high spec 4th gen upgraded options to sustain nos in some way, now which jet would that be, a rafale local prod or a rus option finally again .
Wait for the AMCA Mk-1 to come out . My gut feeling is it being semi stealth with options for external pylons will be the multi role / omni role FA we're seeking in the Rafales & may even end up replacing the MKIs initially.

Long term I'm in favour of an 6th Gen AHCA , the preliminary studies of which should begin in a couple of years & work on realising the technology for which should begin by the early 2030s . Work on final assembly testing & FOC should be over by 2050 followed by series production by early 2050s.

Will it happen ? Yes it will . Will it happen in the timescale I've put out ? Of course not.
 
IAF has already made a decision. Order for 250 nos AL-31FP given & for RD-33 for the MiG -29 fleet recently. The latter is not going to be with us for more than 10-15 years . The former shouldn't be with us for more than 40 years.

It's based on these calculations that the IAF must've taken the decision they have . Rest assured the Russians would first inform the IAF of any new development , hence they must've long informed us of this new TF. In all likelihood the same must've been evaluated too at least in a preliminary manner by the IAF.

Secondly all Russian claims ought to be taken with a pinch of salt even otherwise more so now when their economy is troubled & they've practically lost the export market for their defence products for one reason or another .

That Vijainder Singh is a Russian stooge . Take whatever he says with a pinch of salt.

The problem with Russian TFs like AL-31 has always been high maintenance, and low uptime (MTBO, MTBF), compared to Western ac.

I remember reading somewhere that MTBO for Al-31 series engines was some 500 hours.

That's one reason why the IAF is not in a hurry to buy newer AL-41s or it's variants.

It would also want to its hedge its bets against potential supply chain disruptions affecting local production and Russian shenanigans wrt ToT once a deal is signed.

It'd be too early to assess the Al-51s performance since the RuAF only flies a handful of them.

So the IAF is focusing on sustaining and incrementally improving in-service engines with input from Midhani, etc.

Although it remains to be seen if any IP issues arise from such mods. Saturn will likely refuse to certify any engines upgraded in India, unless of course, we pay them.
 
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Aim big, stop delivering on time and make the product obsolete by arrival. Hope this will not be the case with this.
And people laughed at me when I said few years back that Su-30MKI UPG. will counter J-20 and other stealth fighters. With Virupaksha, New gen IRST & MUM-T, MKI is all set to rule the sky for many more decades to come.


We also need to order at least 40-50(or more) MKI UPG.s from HAL, which can be delivered parallel to the upgrade program in-order to stop our reducing squadron strength. Re-starting the production line for just 12 jets is one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard.
 
Re-starting the production line for just 12 jets is one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard.
If Russia is indeed planning to make India an export hub for Su-30, then this line could end up building a lot more than 12 jets.

Although, the market for Su-30 is shrinking and fast. Indonesia, Malaysia and possibly even Vietnam are going/may go for Western ac.

That leaves Algeria and perhaps Mynamar as existing operators who might want more Su-30.

Only new customer in the short to medium term in my view is Iran. Plus any new Su-35 sales would undercut the Su-30 market.
 
If Russia is indeed planning to make India an export hub for Su-30, then this line could end up building a lot more than 12 jets.

Although, the market for Su-30 is shrinking and fast. Indonesia, Malaysia and possibly even Vietnam are going/may go for Western ac.

That leaves Algeria and perhaps Mynamar as existing operators who might want more Su-30.

Only new customer in the short to medium term in my view is Iran. Plus any new Su-35 sales would undercut the Su-30 market.
If India indeed seeks to emerge as an alternative to Russia by pushing its products in the export markets , it seriously risks attracting CAATSA .

Moreover if it seeks to sell to international pariahs like Iran it'd be a double whammy. I very much doubt we'd be doing the latter even if we should not be involved in the former.

It's one thing for us to break free of Russian controls quite another to emerge as a re exporter of Russian goods.
And people laughed at me when I said few years back that Su-30MKI UPG. will counter J-20 and other stealth fighters. With Virupaksha, New gen IRST & MUM-T, MKI is all set to rule the sky for many more decades to come.


We also need to order at least 40-50(or more) MKI UPG.s from HAL, which can be delivered parallel to the upgrade program in-order to stop our reducing squadron strength. Re-starting the production line for just 12 jets is one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard.
If the proposed ( by HAL ) additional 3-4 squadrons apart from the obvious 12 nos are going to be the standard MKI's , the entire exercise is pointless.

At the same time , how's it realistically possible HAL can deliver all the proposed 3-4 squadrons ( plus the 12 nos ) in Super Sukhoi or UPG configuration is beyond me when the IAF itself has gone on the record to state that the initial exercise for the certification would take 7 years & the entire upgradation for 80 nos MKI would take an additional 8 years after that .

I wonder how much of the above conundrum regarding the timelines are due to budgetary constraints & how much due to the normal gestation period / delay in the realisation of technology ?

Besides how're the IAF going to handle fresh procurements of the ~ 200 Mk-1a's , 100-200 Mk-2 , both versions of the AMCA & lest we forget "the MRFA ," apart from the upgradations of the MKI which itself costs a bomb . Having said that , we've also no news on the status of the other 200 odd MKIs in our inventory w.r.t the upgradation .

Now it's all very well to expect our budgets would increase as our economy grows like RST who duly parrots the same line here whenever the opportunity provides itself but neither has the UPA nor has the NDA given any inclination to exponentially increase the defence budgets in the present or the recent past .

Why should it be any different in the future unless we get another huge kick up our arses in the aftermath of our war with China which would be more of the usual - deja vu all over again ?!
 
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And people laughed at me when I said few years back that Su-30MKI UPG. will counter J-20 and other stealth fighters. With Virupaksha, New gen IRST & MUM-T, MKI is all set to rule the sky for many more decades to come.


We also need to order at least 40-50(or more) MKI UPG.s from HAL, which can be delivered parallel to the upgrade program in-order to stop our reducing squadron strength. Re-starting the production line for just 12 jets is one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard.
Hal is going to propose an order of 72 mki's
 
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If Russia is indeed planning to make India an export hub for Su-30, then this line could end up building a lot more than 12 jets.

Although, the market for Su-30 is shrinking and fast. Indonesia, Malaysia and possibly even Vietnam are going/may go for Western ac.

That leaves Algeria and perhaps Mynamar as existing operators who might want more Su-30.

Only new customer in the short to medium term in my view is Iran. Plus any new Su-35 sales would undercut the Su-30 market.
Armenia may order few, but honesty speaking they should go Rafale or EF instead of super sukhoi.
And people laughed at me when I said few years back that Su-30MKI UPG. will counter J-20 and other stealth fighters. With Virupaksha, New gen IRST & MUM-T, MKI is all set to rule the sky for many more decades to come.


We also need to order at least 40-50(or more) MKI UPG.s from HAL, which can be delivered parallel to the upgrade program in-order to stop our reducing squadron strength. Re-starting the production line for just 12 jets is one of the most stupidest things I've ever heard.
Not possible with the envisioned time line.
 
If Russia is indeed planning to make India an export hub for Su-30, then this line could end up building a lot more than 12 jets.

Although, the market for Su-30 is shrinking and fast. Indonesia, Malaysia and possibly even Vietnam are going/may go for Western ac.

That leaves Algeria and perhaps Mynamar as existing operators who might want more Su-30.

Only new customer in the short to medium term in my view is Iran. Plus any new Su-35 sales would undercut the Su-30 market.
I doubt its an export hub that is aimed, rather its the maintenance ROH type hub, as well as upgrades be it Rus or Indian. At least for the su30 line. I mean what more new order prospect a 4th Gen fighter can expect at a time the main OEM is moving to future platforms promotion as well?
 
That won't stop them from promoting souped up versions of legacy platforms. For example: MiG-35 (with TVC no less).

Same playbook as LM with F-16 B70 though the latter has customers for it.

Russia has been proposing a unified Su-30+Su-35 family with common avionics and weapons as both platforms head into their sunset years.

They made a similar pitch to us before we settled on a desi solution for MKI UPG.
 
That won't stop them from promoting souped up versions of legacy platforms. For example: MiG-35 (with TVC no less).

Same playbook as LM with F-16 B70 though the latter has customers for it.

Russia has been proposing a unified Su-30+Su-35 family with common avionics and weapons as both platforms head into their sunset years.

They made a similar pitch to us before we settled on a desi solution for MKI UPG.
Mig 35 Rus themselves have bought only a few nos prob, compared to available su30 nos worldwide. Its a different case, same goes with su35. I mean solely on su30 platform and prospect part. To me it looks the promotion of Indian capacity of ROH of the su30 platform and offer upgrades as well as enhanced weapons package (this is the juice part), sort of amc contract if you like, which would actually have some takers compared to a customer buying brand new numbers of su30 jets.

Since we have not shown much interest on the su35 line, makes little sense HAL or any other Indian entity would be much interested in that either, other than common lru items maybe. screws, fasteners, precision forge parts, cables etc maybe. As an AMC hub and LRU provider, we can certainly offer value and likely the interest is in offering the weapons we are making.
 
Makes sense. Russian production lines will remain geared towards domestic needs well after the war is over. So HAL could fill in the gap quite well.

In fact, countries like Malaysia would have gotten rid of their MKMs by now had it not been for HAL spares and support. Now they want to keep their fleet thru 2040.

HAL had bundled a Su-30 support package along with its LCA offer in Malaysia's recent fighter completion. Too bad we didn't make it.
 
If we want build additional Su30 squadrons in UPG configuration, Upgrade configuration must be certified before that.

Which again falls in the timeline of Mk2 & MRFA.. Do we need more heavy fighters in same timeline ?

Engine deal is eluding us both GE & NG JV engine.. If this is sorted out..Rest of the things will in place..

Additional Su 30 order can serve us as back up plan in case everything fails.. And 7 years has crossed by then..

Immediate possibility Mk1 A hopefully from next year..

Short term additional squads Mk1 B .

Medium term = Mk2, Ghatak, MRFA & Super sukhoi..

Long term = Amca & Tedbf with MRFA JV engines.