Sukhoi Su-30MKI

Rajput Lion

Senior member
Sep 23, 2022
1,866
1,389
India
Any plane moving above 500kmph will create enough shock-waves to be detected by both MWIR and LWIR QWIP/QDIP sensors. These modern IR sensors are much more advance than their predecessors. Also, it's literally impossible to completely eliminate skin friction and heating of surrounding air as a consequence.

Both radar and IR sensors are important and are here to stay even in 6th or 7th gen aerial warfare, IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lolwa and marich01

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
6,794
11,109
Bangalore
Few years delay ordering this is ok if we are getting these in the upgraded configuration.

It will be 96 upgraded MKIs by 2032 hopefully. A minimum of 2-3 years of testing before certification will be there.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rajput Lion

Domobran7

Active member
Dec 7, 2017
172
168
southern Croatia
I'm referring to FoV and IFoV. To get greater resolution, you have to sacrifice FoV, which is why it's a secondary system.
True.
That's different, totally irrelevant. I'm talking about midwave detecting things at higher temperature, long wave doesn't. The detectors of both are tuned to specific wavelengths.
Yes, I know. But thing is that at higher altitudes, even "low temperature" can still be ~50 to 100 degrees Celsius above the average.

Plus, many of the lower temperature sources of IR are things you simply cannot get rid of or even reduce... things like air compression, sunlight reflection from the canopy (or even the airframe), frictional heating...
Exactly, so the Flanker will always be detected first. I mean, that's the point. You can break the kill chain later, but the more late it gets, the more defensive you are. Like, great, a seeker can't get to you, but you are still gonna be prancing about in the sky just to avoid it when the enemy is busy doing his work. If the enemy can't kill you, but still manages to deploy weapons against ground targets, then he wins. Great, you survived, but what you're supposed to be protecting is dead.
True.
No. The idea behind directional link is you have no idea there's a comlink working out there. So there's nothing for you to jam. You wanna brute force a jammer, then that's useless, all you will earn is a missile up your tailpipe. Jamming today has to be specific, and unfortunately, reactionary.

Only radar can be pro-active.
Even directional link can never be truly directional unless you are talking stuff like actual lasers. Best you can get is reduced range of detection.

Whether that is enough...
No, they are not. Many techniques used today are in fact specific to AESA. And you get even more with digital AESAs.
Examples?
Metamaterials will significantly reduce heat generation via absorption of heat. Yes, you will emit heat, but it will be sporadic and lower than ambient heat sources, at least ideally.

For example, there's a pretty good chance you won't see the B-21 with IR sensors at all. NGAD could follow suit, depending on how the engine is treated. At the very least, midwave detectors will become entirely useless against such jets in the future. You will still need it to detect missiles though.
What, is B-21 going to use antigravity to fly?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,309
14,039
India
Yes, I know. But thing is that at higher altitudes, even "low temperature" can still be ~50 to 100 degrees Celsius above the average.

Plus, many of the lower temperature sources of IR are things you simply cannot get rid of or even reduce... things like air compression, sunlight reflection from the canopy (or even the airframe), frictional heating...

That's something only long wave can detect, not midwave.

Even directional link can never be truly directional unless you are talking stuff like actual lasers. Best you can get is reduced range of detection.

Oh, it can be extremely directional. In higher wavelengths, you have to directly be in the path of the signal or you won't hear it.

It's like trying to block a laser pointer, you have to very, very literally stand in the way. The reason being they will use a patrol link, not a data link.

Examples?

Pulse compression. Adaptive beamforming. New sidelobe cancelation techniques. The advent of AI is bringing in new cognitive techniques that are unknown.

What, is B-21 going to use antigravity to fly?

The exhaust is very well hidden. It's unlikely to form a plume for example.

1611856721_regnum_picture_1593425036198841_normal.png


The exhaust is also rectangular and quite wide, so there's that. Both cooling air stream and ambient air can further cool the exhaust gases.
 

Rajput Lion

Senior member
Sep 23, 2022
1,866
1,389
India
Some defence channels are reporting that we're not going to care about IPR during MKI MLU. If true, then it's a nice step, IMO.

@Arpuism

In our last debate on some other thread, you said that AMCA MK2 will replace MKI while I said that we need a large 6th gen fighter to do the same. Looks like we're going to start feasibility studies for our future 6th gen fighter soon. So finally my wish may come true:)
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,309
14,039
India
Some defence channels are reporting that we're not going to care about IPR during MKI MLU. If true, then it's a nice step, IMO.

@Arpuism

In our last debate on some other thread, you said that AMCA MK2 will replace MKI while I said that we need a large 6th gen fighter to do the same. Looks like we're going to start feasibility studies for our future 6th gen fighter soon. So finally my wish may come true:)

2030 start, 2035 official program, 2040 first flight, 2050 IOC. That's my assumption. I simply call it the post-AMCA fighter.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rajput Lion

Rajput Lion

Senior member
Sep 23, 2022
1,866
1,389
India
2030 start, 2035 official program, 2040 first flight, 2050 IOC. That's my assumption. I simply call it the post-AMCA fighter.
As per some speculations, NGAD prototype has already broken altitude and speed records. PLAAF J-XX would just follow USAF lead. AMCA MK2 won't match Chinese 6th gen fighter. So a 6th/7th gen fighter is imperative that can cruise at around 80k to 100k feet at over Mach 2+ and dash speed of Mach 3 with very impressive endurance using VCE engines.

I like how our defence planners are now planning for next gen tech beforehand rather than just trying to catch up.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,309
14,039
India
As per some speculations, NGAD prototype has already broken altitude and speed records. PLAAF J-XX would just follow USAF lead. AMCA MK2 won't match Chinese 6th gen fighter. So a 6th/7th gen fighter is imperative that can cruise at around 80k to 100k feet at over Mach 2+ and dash speed of Mach 3 with very impressive endurance using VCE engines.

I like how our defence planners are now planning for next gen tech beforehand rather than just trying to catch up.

AMCA is primarily meant to get our foot in the door. For 2050+, the post-AMCA fighter is gonna have to be near-space capable.

We are playing catch-up though. The main powers will have 6th gen by 2035 and the Russians will have a near-space fighter flying before the decade is out. More optimistic reports say it may enter the testing phase in a year or two. There's the American SR-72 as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
4,167
1,957
Mumbai
2030 start, 2035 official program, 2040 first flight, 2050 IOC. That's my assumption. I simply call it the post-AMCA fighter.
Before starting a 6th gen program , we should have a fifth gen figher. Atleast a fifth gen program. But before a fifth gen fighter peogram, we must have atleast an indigenous 4th gen fighter flying. But sadly the alleged fourth gen fighter LCA Tejas MK1 is just a trainer aircraft by any standard, like Korean FA 50.
Some defence channels are reporting that we're not going to care about IPR during MKI MLU. If true, then it's a nice step, IMO.

@Arpuism

In our last debate on some other thread, you said that AMCA MK2 will replace MKI while I said that we need a large 6th gen fighter to do the same. Looks like we're going to start feasibility studies for our future 6th gen fighter soon. So finally my wish may come true:)
 

Rajput Lion

Senior member
Sep 23, 2022
1,866
1,389
India
Before starting a 6th gen program , we should have a fifth gen figher. Atleast a fifth gen program. But before a fifth gen fighter peogram, we must have atleast an indigenous 4th gen fighter flying. But sadly the alleged fourth gen fighter LCA Tejas MK1 is just a trainer aircraft by any standard, like Korean FA 50.
MK1 is now a passe. MK1A is as good a light-weight fighter that you'll get. It's not just 4th gen but 4++ or 4.5+ gen.

We already have a running 5th gen program in AMCA. Result would be delivered by the next decade. 6th gen program is for 2040s and beyond.
 

Rajput Lion

Senior member
Sep 23, 2022
1,866
1,389
India
AMCA is primarily meant to get our foot in the door. For 2050+, the post-AMCA fighter is gonna have to be near-space capable.
Even with a superlative air to air fighter like MKI, earlier it was Mirage-2000 and now Rafale that was/will be our 'get our foot in the door' fighter. So AMCA would be just like Rafale++.

6th gen fighter should be our proper MKI replacement as its kinematics would allow it to fly high and fast with superior endurance. And it's imperative for us to have such a futuristic heavy-weight 'air dominance/supremacy fighter' to take on PLA-AF.
We are playing catch-up though. The main powers will have 6th gen by 2035 and the Russians will have a near-space fighter flying before the decade is out. More optimistic reports say it may enter the testing phase in a year or two. There's the American SR-72 as well.
SR-72 is for recon. I don't believe full 6th gen fighter/system would be operational(FOC) before 2040. Yes, we will play catch up, but starting a program now(which we're doing) means that we'll catch 'em up much faster than before.

US operationalised their 5th gen in 2005 and China in 2017. Ours will come by 2035, so 30 years behind US and 18 behind China. Early start to 6th gen means this massive time chasm shall somewhat reduce.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
4,167
1,957
Mumbai
MK1 is now a passe. MK1A is as good a light-weight fighter that you'll get. It's not just 4th gen but 4++ or 4.5+ gen.

We already have a running 5th gen program in AMCA. Result would be delivered by the next decade. 6th gen program is for 2040s and beyond.
Tejas mk1: A trainer.

Tejas mk1a will be a gen 4,but not a single example is flying as on 9th December 2023 @IST 02:03 AM. Icing on top, its just a compromised version of IAF's original version MK2.

AMCA is a project under discussion at various stages of decision making. Not any work is started, AFAIK.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,309
14,039
India
Before starting a 6th gen program , we should have a fifth gen figher. Atleast a fifth gen program. But before a fifth gen fighter peogram, we must have atleast an indigenous 4th gen fighter flying. But sadly the alleged fourth gen fighter LCA Tejas MK1 is just a trainer aircraft by any standard, like Korean FA 50.

LCA is a full-fledged fighter.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rajput Lion

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,309
14,039
India
SR-72 is for recon. I don't believe full 6th gen fighter/system would be operational(FOC) before 2040. Yes, we will play catch up, but starting a program now(which we're doing) means that we'll catch 'em up much faster than before.

6th gen fighters are already flying or in the engineering phase today. The US is gonna decide its winner next year. The Chinese started theirs in 2019, so it's possible they are very close to first flight or are already flying a TD. The Russians are also very close to first flight.

US operationalised their 5th gen in 2005 and China in 2017. Ours will come by 2035, so 30 years behind US and 18 behind China. Early start to 6th gen means this massive time chasm shall somewhat reduce.

We just have to make something that sits between 6th and 7th. Then again, we are being slow. Hence the need for a stopgap, if at all. Unlike the other three we are still followers.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rajput Lion

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
3,129
2,017
India
Lca mk1 Elta 2032, had the best clarity among fighter radars until Rafale inducted.

Mk1A will have Elta 2052 in initial batch

Later will get Uttam..

Mk1A will get many sensors & EW for self protection.. None of that in any other aircraft other than Rafale has now.

Will integrate Indian missiles and bombs.. Giving us the endurance in war.
No need to entirely depend on emergency purchase for waging war.
No need to worry about shelf life losses.

We can only harass PAF to bankruptcy.

Tejas program has now given the capabilities to Indianize Jag, Su 30, Mig 29 K and may be Mirage 2000. ..

Just saving the cost of upgrade with Indian radar, electronics, avionics, armament s above aircraft s alone will be staggering. .

And ease of maintenance, any base any fighter no need to worry about armament stocks.

---------------


On topic @randomradio, u meant buying additional 12 Su 30mki as payment to Russians?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Rajput Lion