Project Kusha / Programme LRSAM / PGLRSAM

Fatalis

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What we know so far is that there are 3 missiles under Project Kusha having possible designation - M1, M2 and M3. My guess is:
M1 - LRSAM - 150km
M2 - ERSAM - 250km
M3- XRSAM - 350km

IMO, first possibility can be:
M1 - MRSAM (Indo-Israeli dual pulse missile) + Booster
M2 - MRSAM + Bigger Booster
M3 - MRSAM + Much Bigger Booster

Another possibility can be:
M1 - Dual Pulse Missile (MRSAM) + Booster
M2 - Triple Pulse Missile (New missile under development by DRDO)
M3 - Triple Pulse Missile + Booster

All are just guess work.
 

randomradio

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Zero chance of ground launched astra giving 150km !. Imagine a 200-250 kg missile giving that range.

Anything within that range has to be a new development. It can be based on AAD or MRSAM evolution since Israelis are involved.

In air-launched mode, it gives 250Km. They can still add a small booster or modify the existing one for increased initial speed.

The boosted version will basically make it similar to an air-launched model because the missile will be boosted to mid-high altitude first, thereby simulating air-launched conditions.

3.jpg


All three may be Astra Mk2 with different booster sizes.
 

randomradio

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previous LRSAM/MRSAM itself was dual pulse , now they added a fat booster under it. Range and other spec are how the user would like it to be.
Lets see how this pan out when first test happens. Ground launched Astra is VL-SRSAM under project Astra. They call it SRSAM actually.

View attachment 31010

That's just the Barak 8 with some extra modifications for the IA and IAF.

VL-SRSAM has different objectives, it only uses Astra Mk1.
 

Chain Smoker

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What we know so far is that there are 3 missiles under Project Kusha having possible designation - M1, M2 and M3. My guess is:
M1 - LRSAM - 150km
M2 - ERSAM - 250km
M3- XRSAM - 350km

IMO, first possibility can be:
M1 - MRSAM (Indo-Israeli dual pulse missile) + Booster
M2 - MRSAM + Bigger Booster
M3 - MRSAM + Much Bigger Booster

Another possibility can be:
M1 - Dual Pulse Missile (MRSAM) + Booster
M2 - Triple Pulse Missile (New missile under development by DRDO)
M3 - Triple Pulse Missile + Booster

All are just guess work.
Author just got confused between LRSAM(now MRSAM) and project kusha which is also designated as LRSAM.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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What we know so far is that there are 3 missiles under Project Kusha having possible designation - M1, M2 and M3. My guess is:
M1 - LRSAM - 150km
M2 - ERSAM - 250km
M3- XRSAM - 350km

IMO, first possibility can be:
M1 - MRSAM (Indo-Israeli dual pulse missile) + Booster
M2 - MRSAM + Bigger Booster
M3 - MRSAM + Much Bigger Booster

Another possibility can be:
M1 - Dual Pulse Missile (MRSAM) + Booster
M2 - Triple Pulse Missile (New missile under development by DRDO)
M3 - Triple Pulse Missile + Booster

All are just guess work.

ERSAM and XRSAM are supposed to be the same. That extra 100Km comes from following a ballistic trajectory meant to high less agile targets.
 

marich01

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Aug 17, 2022
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That's just the Barak 8 with some extra modifications for the IA and IAF.

VL-SRSAM has different objectives, it only uses Astra Mk1.
No I mean the airframe is derived like that, its under Project Astra at DRDL , VK Acharya sir is co-ordinator. LRSAM is under Dr Joshi and airframe is different. There is very subtle different between astra 1 and 2 design.
 

marich01

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Author just got confused between LRSAM(now MRSAM) and project kusha which is also designated as LRSAM.
The reporters are maybe, but I think we have seen that pic of supposed ERSAM/XRSAM designs and its not far off from actual designs so far tbh, this goes for BMD AD1 AD2 as well.

Kusha project has one IAC specific version, which was already under development, tweaked from original MRSAM as you need better protection for bigger asset. I think multi pulse based future long range sam is definitely on the cards.
 
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Rajput Lion

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Sep 23, 2022
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What we know so far is that there are 3 missiles under Project Kusha having possible designation - M1, M2 and M3. My guess is:
M1 - LRSAM - 150km
M2 - ERSAM - 250km
M3- XRSAM - 350km

IMO, first possibility can be:
M1 - MRSAM (Indo-Israeli dual pulse missile) + Booster
M2 - MRSAM + Bigger Booster
M3 - MRSAM + Much Bigger Booster

Another possibility can be:
M1 - Dual Pulse Missile (MRSAM) + Booster
M2 - Triple Pulse Missile (New missile under development by DRDO)
M3 - Triple Pulse Missile + Booster

All are just guess work.
One thing is sure that there is a definite triple pulse missile in the works. It could be for air to air purpose or for SAM. Your analysis looks by far the best to me(y)
 
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marich01

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Yes likely that. I forget the short names often. Ah no other MP has posted the full poster anywhere.
 

Ashwin

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In air-launched mode, it gives 250Km. They can still add a small booster or modify the existing one for increased initial speed.

The boosted version will basically make it similar to an air-launched model because the missile will be boosted to mid-high altitude first, thereby simulating air-launched conditions.

View attachment 31011

All three may be Astra Mk2 with different booster sizes.
Not possible, You cannot make a long range SAM from a BVR.

The supposed extreme ranges of a BVR missile are achieved by launching them from very high altitudes. They are not optimised to gain altitude. You cannot fix that using a booster.

LR-SAMs require hight altitude engagement capability. Thus you may be able to make a SRSAM from BVR but not LRSAM. There is no history of such conversion. Be it AMRAAM or R-77.
 

randomradio

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Not possible, You cannot make a long range SAM from a BVR.

The supposed extreme ranges of a BVR missile are achieved by launching them from very high altitudes. They are not optimised to gain altitude. You cannot fix that using a booster.

LR-SAMs require hight altitude engagement capability. Thus you may be able to make a SRSAM from BVR but not LRSAM. There is no history of such conversion. Be it AMRAAM or R-77.

'Cause none of them have tried it. All BVR based SAMs have been with small boosters or none for short and medium range systems like SPYDER and NASAMS. But they have the altitude regardless. A larger booster will simply carry the missile to a higher altitude. So you can imagine an Astra carried to 8-14Km and then simulating aircraft release. That's how they are currently doing the SFDR tests.

Missile was guided to high altitude to simulate aircraft release conditions and subsequently nozzle-less-booster was ignited.

BVR missiles have been developed for all aircraft altitudes. It just restricts itself to aerodynamic targets and theater missiles.
 

Ashwin

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'Cause none of them have tried it. All BVR based SAMs have been with small boosters or none for short and medium range systems like SPYDER and NASAMS. But they have the altitude regardless. A larger booster will simply carry the missile to a higher altitude. So you can imagine an Astra carried to 8-14Km and then simulating aircraft release
No one tries it because its impractical.
Successful Flight Test of SFDR Missile was guided to high altitude to simulate aircraft release conditions and subsequently nozzle-less-booster was ignited.

You are proving my point. It is simulating a release from high altitude from a fighter towards a target at a lower altitude. This is not a use case for SAM.

No one is saying that a BVR cannot be converted to a SAM, but it cannot be converted into a long-range one. Missile itself need high specific impulse cannot be depended on booster.
 

randomradio

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No one tries it because its impractical.

No. No one tried it because it was difficult back then. 'Cause BVR missiles needed more accuracy for the terminal phase. Not the case anymore with modern AESA radars and seekers.

Israel's David's Sling is a good example today. So we are not the first anyway.

You are proving my point. It is simulating a release from high altitude from a fighter towards a target at a lower altitude. This is not a use case for SAM.

No. The point you made was " They are not optimised to gain altitude. You cannot fix that using a booster." My link disputes that. As long as a BVR missile can be delivered to a high altitude, it will behave pretty much exactly like it was fired from a fighter jet. The SFDR test proves it can.

The booster can cut off and detach at any altitude if the target is low, that doesn't matter. Plus the SAM can just use a missile without a booster anyway. The boosted missile is for long range, ie, 250Km and 350Km.

You already admit a BVR missile works as a SAM at lower altitudes 'cause there are other SAM types, even VL-SRSAM and VL-MICA. You have doubts about high altitude and long range, and the PIB link addresses that. I don't see what's the issue here.

No one is saying that a BVR cannot be converted to a SAM, but it cannot be converted into a long-range one. Missile itself need high specific impulse cannot be depended on booster.

That's the point of the SFDR test. Once boosted to high altitude, it can cover a distance of 120-350Km, depending on its speed and altitude. Is that long range enough?

There's no reason to test an SFDR from the ground if it cannot simulate aircraft release. But it does. And the SFDR is currently being tested for the purpose of developing an AAM so all three altitudes need to be tested and validated before the program begins.
 

Ashwin

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No. The point you made was " They are not optimised to gain altitude. You cannot fix that using a booster." My link disputes that. As long as a BVR missile can be delivered to a high altitude, it will behave pretty much exactly like it was fired from a fighter jet. The SFDR test proves it can.

The booster can cut off and detach at any altitude if the target is low, that doesn't matter. Plus the SAM can just use a missile without a booster anyway. The boosted missile is for long range, ie, 250Km and 350Km.

You already admit a BVR missile works as a SAM at lower altitudes 'cause there are other SAM types, even VL-SRSAM and VL-MICA. You have doubts about high altitude and long range, and the PIB link addresses that. I don't see what's the issue here.
Again, PIB link literally says "guided to high altitude to simulate aircraft release".

Astra's first test was also ground-launched back in 2008. Ground-based tests are safer and easier to validate the missile before integrating it into the fighter. However, that does not mean it was always intended as a SAM.

Also, your original claim was about the Astra Mk-2. Where did the SFDR come from? Did they ground test Mk2?
 

marich01

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I think the weight and warhead difference of long range sam vs a bvr missile converted into sam is important. This M1 missile tenders had shown 2 different warheads, 30 kg and 60kg class. Astra in comparison has a 15kg warhead. So if a bvr is converted into a sam, it will need to up that aspect too and will need to have a redesign.

Also bvr missiles, most of those pull up post release and drop down onto the target at a much later terminal stage when target is locked on, else it would not be able to sustain the long range engagement. What altitude does that happen at, must be over 15km at least? I would guess pretty high alt for its coasting part?
 
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randomradio

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Again, PIB link literally says "guided to high altitude to simulate aircraft release".

Yes, the fact that it was guided to high altitude with just a booster alone is proof enough.

Astra's first test was also ground-launched back in 2008. Ground-based tests are safer and easier to validate the missile before integrating it into the fighter. However, that does not mean it was always intended as a SAM.

Neither is the SFDR, it's being designed as an AAM. But it can perform the duties of a long range SAM too.

Also, your original claim was about the Astra Mk-2. Where did the SFDR come from? Did they ground test Mk2?

SFDR or Astra, the booster will be the same.

All AAMs are ground tested first.