Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
12,038
8,276
Tripura, NE, India
Weren't the land based trials already over? What trials are being referred to here? Sea based trials? Any idea ? @Ashwin ; @Gautam ; @hellbent
Among the land based trials reaching the Max power & sustaining that was completed. There are a few crucial ones left.

All batteries show a degradation behavior when subjected to a large number of cyclic loads. After a number of charging & discharging cycles batteries wont give you max power or sustaining capacity anymore. The number of cycles needed to cause a degradation needs to be experimentally found. Also the degradation behavior needs to be characterized. A graceful slow & steady decline in performance is preferred over a sudden drop in performance.

Then there is the other looming problem. The PAFC has Hydrogen generation capacity, that means we need plumbing to carry high pressure hydrogen gas. That is a big challenge for materials as Hydrogen has a tendency of attacking metals/alloys & forming metal hydrides. This can lead to unexpected catastrophic failures. It is called "Hydrogen Embrittlement". There are aerospace grade alloys out there to deal with such problems, but those are incredibly expensive. There are coatings too, but they are not reliable at high temp/pressure. What ever approach you take to settle this issue it will need meticulous testing & documentation to get full confidence in the chosen material's reliability under service conditions.

All of these trails will take some time. 3-4 years at least. Trails started in 2018-19 so it should take around 2021-22 to end. I am expecting some delays along the way, fatigue testing isn't difficult but it is time consuming.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
13,883
9,954
Mumbai
Among the land based trials reaching the Max power & sustaining that was completed. There are a few crucial ones left.

All batteries show a degradation behavior when subjected to a large number of cyclic loads. After a number of charging & discharging cycles batteries wont give you max power or sustaining capacity anymore. The number of cycles needed to cause a degradation needs to be experimentally found. Also the degradation behavior needs to be characterized. A graceful slow & steady decline in performance is preferred over a sudden drop in performance.

Then there is the other looming problem. The PAFC has Hydrogen generation capacity, that means we need plumbing to carry high pressure hydrogen gas. That is a big challenge for materials as Hydrogen has a tendency of attacking metals/alloys & forming metal hydrides. This can lead to unexpected catastrophic failures. It is called "Hydrogen Embrittlement". There are aerospace grade alloys out there to deal with such problems, but those are incredibly expensive. There are coatings too, but they are not reliable at high temp/pressure. What ever approach you take to settle this issue it will need meticulous testing & documentation to get full confidence in the chosen material's reliability under service conditions.

All of these trails will take some time. 3-4 years at least. Trails started in 2018-19 so it should take around 2021-22 to end. I am expecting some delays along the way, fatigue testing isn't difficult but it is time consuming.
I believe the sea trials will commence by 2022 for which a Scorpene sub will undergo the necessary retrofit this year. Further to that it'd be another 2-3 years of testing at sea which translates to our indigenous AIP system receiving it's certification in 2025-26 at the earliest.
 
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Tatvamasi

Well-Known member
Jan 5, 2018
615
512
India

Submarine deal​

In January 2020, the DAC had shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75I deal worth over ₹45,000 crore. Once the DAC clears it, the Navy will issue the Request For Proposal (RFP) to the two Indian companies who would respond to it in partnership with a foreign Original Equipment manufacturer (OEM).

The delay in the P-75I deal was the extra caution at each step of the process as this was being done for the first time, the official stated.

This project is being processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) model of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), which aims to promote the role of Indian industry in defence manufacturing and build a domestic defence industrial ecosystem.

While there are two Indian companies shortlisted, there are five foreign OEMs selected. They are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME)(South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and TKMS (Germany).
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,887
838
France

Submarine deal​

In January 2020, the DAC had shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75I deal worth over ₹45,000 crore. Once the DAC clears it, the Navy will issue the Request For Proposal (RFP) to the two Indian companies who would respond to it in partnership with a foreign Original Equipment manufacturer (OEM).

The delay in the P-75I deal was the extra caution at each step of the process as this was being done for the first time, the official stated.

This project is being processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) model of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), which aims to promote the role of Indian industry in defence manufacturing and build a domestic defence industrial ecosystem.

While there are two Indian companies shortlisted, there are five foreign OEMs selected. They are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME)(South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and TKMS (Germany).
Navantia..... it's a joke. Their sub is late, overweighted, over budget. The perfect exemple of what india don't need.
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,700
1,620
Bangalore
Ninjamonkey (@Aryan_warlord) Tweeted:
The #SouthKorean variant of the Type-209 . Both #India @MDL_SUBMARINE & #SouthKorea got complete technology transfer & designs of the Type 209 from HDW #Germany .
We built 4 & didn't do anything with the designs , they built 9 for themselves & are building 6 for #Indonesia .

A small nation south Korea is smarter than us. Not only they made 9 hdw submarines for themselves but are making 6 for Indonesia and earning money from it. We @[email protected] in defence ministry and defence PSUs....
 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
1,400
1,095
Republic of Wadiya
Ninjamonkey (@Aryan_warlord) Tweeted:
The #SouthKorean variant of the Type-209 . Both #India @MDL_SUBMARINE & #SouthKorea got complete technology transfer & designs of the Type 209 from HDW #Germany .
We built 4 & didn't do anything with the designs , they built 9 for themselves & are building 6 for #Indonesia .

A small nation south Korea is smarter than us. Not only they made 9 hdw submarines for themselves but are making 6 for Indonesia and earning money from it. We @[email protected] in defence ministry and defence PSUs....
@kor4116 😀
 

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,624
725
Mumbai
Ninjamonkey (@Aryan_warlord) Tweeted:
The #SouthKorean variant of the Type-209 . Both #India @MDL_SUBMARINE & #SouthKorea got complete technology transfer & designs of the Type 209 from HDW #Germany .
We built 4 & didn't do anything with the designs , they built 9 for themselves & are building 6 for #Indonesia .

A small nation south Korea is smarter than us. Not only they made 9 hdw submarines for themselves but are making 6 for Indonesia and earning money from it. We @[email protected] in defence ministry and defence PSUs....
Similar things happened with shakthi engine. Instead of developing further, we are now hunting engine from abroad for upcoming medium helicopter.
 

Ankit Kumar

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,377
2,158
Bangalore
Indian Navy set to issue Rs 50,000 crore tender for submarines
Read more At:
The proposed draft of RFP if cleared tomorrow can then be issued in the coming weeks.

Intersting fad to note is the weapons. 12 LACM in addition to 18 Torpedo loadout.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,600
8,032
India
Indian Navy set to issue Rs 50,000 crore tender for submarines
Read more At:
The proposed draft of RFP if cleared tomorrow can then be issued in the coming weeks.

Intersting fad to note is the weapons. 12 LACM in addition to 18 Torpedo loadout.

Finally, excellent news. It's already been delayed by a month.

Yeah, the torpedoes are necessary. Plus there's a good chance the torpedo room will also carry 4-6 AShMs, apart from the 12 in the VLS. These may be the smaller medium range subsonic stealthy types, the Indian NSM-equivalents, whereas the VLS could carry the long range LR-LACM, Brahmos-1/2 etc for land attack and anti-shipping roles where the targeting will mainly come from off-board sources.
 
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Ankit Kumar

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,377
2,158
Bangalore
Finally, excellent news. It's already been delayed by a month.

Yeah, the torpedoes are necessary. Plus there's a good chance the torpedo room will also carry 4-6 AShMs, apart from the 12 in the VLS. These may be the smaller medium range subsonic stealthy types, the Indian NSM-equivalents, whereas the VLS could carry the long range LR-LACM, Brahmos-1/2 etc for land attack and anti-shipping roles where the targeting will mainly come from off-board sources.
Even after RFP is released, I see lots of issues propping up at the time of tie ups for SP model.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,600
8,032
India
Even after RFP is released, I see lots of issues propping up at the time of tie ups for SP model.

I think that's less likely since a lot of details have been flushed out over the last few years. Foreign OEMs and private companies have signed a lot of MoUs and agreements since the SPM process was announced. Also the govt has made the ToT process simpler and less stringent, largely leaving it to the OEM, as long as they get to 50%. Most production contracts can be signed within a few months in reality, which is why they expect a contract to be signed by the end of 2022.
 
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Chain Smoker

Well-Known member
Mar 2, 2020
341
269
india
Finally, excellent news. It's already been delayed by a month.

Yeah, the torpedoes are necessary. Plus there's a good chance the torpedo room will also carry 4-6 AShMs, apart from the 12 in the VLS. These may be the smaller medium range subsonic stealthy types, the Indian NSM-equivalents, whereas the VLS could carry the long range LR-LACM, Brahmos-1/2 etc for land attack and anti-shipping roles where the targeting will mainly come from off-board sources.
Better to scrap it and move on with our design we have the capability to do that.