Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

[RationalGuy]

They didn't even want to take on China in 1962 when China had literally no industry worth the name leave aside our dependence on it .

Contrast that with the eve of WW-1 where UK was the largest trade partner of Germany & there was a lot of trade going on between the Allies & Axis powers.

All these excuses are the equivalent of Dil behalane ke liye Ghalib yeh khayal accha hain.

How sure are you that our defence industry doesn't rely on Chinese metals or other components. I'm not too sure. We need to build our industry and then go to war with China. China must be taught a lesson for interfering with our affairs and area of influence but that day is some time away.

 

[_Anonymous_]

How sure are you that our defence industry doesn't rely on Chinese metals or other components. I'm not too sure.

There were plenty of reports on those FPV drones deployed by the armed forces which relied heavily on Chinese components. Subsequently orders were cancelled & tech specs were re drafted.

Then there was old news about some Chinese components surfacing in the INS Vikramaditya in the boiler section IIRC.


Other than that there's nothing much in the public domain.

 

[Chicu01]

Some member talked about posting Pakistan’s version of their Op Bunyan from some Western def magazine here.

Can that member pls post the article/ screenshots here.

 

[RationalGuy]

 

[GuardianRED]

Some member talked about posting Pakistan’s version of their Op Bunyan from some Western def magazine here.

Can that member pls post the article/ screenshots here.

Well, it's Pakistani version through Alan Wakes

View attachment 44793

View attachment 44791

Honestly - I'm trying to be open here to give a balanced view, BUT since ALAN WAKES is a group editor, we can expect more of this

 

[RationalGuy]

View attachment 44790

Gotta take this threat seriously. India needs to double down on anti stealth radar to not only detect but also track and get firing solution on these jets from a long distance. Resident experts @Parthu @randomradio @Rajput Lion will our VHF anti stealth radar and the radar for Kusha be capable of getting a firing solution on a J35 type jet with lets say 0.01 m^2 RCS beyond 100 km?

 

[Parthu]

Gotta take this threat seriously. India needs to double down on anti stealth radar to not only detect but also track and get firing solution on these jets from a long distance. Resident experts @Parthu @randomradio @Rajput Lion will our VHF anti stealth radar and the radar for Kusha be capable of getting a firing solution on a J35 type jet with lets say 0.01 m^2 RCS beyond 100 km?

VHF radars don't really provide firing solutions, their resolution is too poor for that.

What they can do is to tell the shorter-wavelength radars (like S or X-band ones) where to look so that they can maximize their effectiveness by focusing their beams in a certain direction instead of wasting energy on searching across their FoV.

It's these shorter wavelength radars that have to generate the firing solutions.

The effect of J-35/J-20's stealth is optimized to defeat these frequencies (mostly X-band) in particular, so compared to dealing with planes like F-16, J-10 or J-16, the J-35/J-20 will represent a considerably greater degree of difficulty for us, no doubt.

But we need to put our best foot forward (maximize effectiveness of sensors) if we have to meet the threat, and integrating these advanced VHF radars into our IADS will greatly help with that.

 

[RationalGuy]

VHF radars don't really provide firing solutions, their resolution is too poor for that.

What they can do is to tell the shorter-wavelength radars (like S or X-band ones) where to look so that they can maximize their effectiveness by focusing their beams in a certain direction instead of wasting energy on searching across their FoV.

It's these shorter wavelength radars that have to generate the firing solutions.

The effect of J-35/J-20's stealth is optimized to defeat these frequencies (mostly X-band) in particular, so compared to dealing with planes like F-16, J-10 or J-16, the J-35/J-20 will represent a considerably greater degree of difficulty for us, no doubt.

But we need to put our best foot forward (maximize effectiveness of sensors) if we have to meet the threat, and integrating these advanced VHF radars into our IADS will greatly help with that.

You're basically telling me that in the next conflict, IAF will have to stay away by 300 km from the LoC to avoid getting fired upon by J35 with PL15 in IWB, maybe even more if the J35 crosses the border into Indian airspace. This basically means our current AWACS will be almost useless as their range is 200-300 km only. With PL17, J35 will certainly be more detectable as it cannot hold it in IWB, will it be detectable enough for engagement in BVR?

Also experts, what are the types of SEAD and DEAD weapons J35 can carry in it's IWB? Maybe our resident Han @LX1111 can answer this.

 

[Parthu]

You're basically telling me that in the next conflict, IAF will have to stay away by 300 km from the LoC to avoid getting fired upon by J35 with PL15 in IWB, maybe even more if the J35 crosses the border into Indian airspace. This basically means our current AWACS will be almost useless as their range is 200-300 km only.

Sharing a previous post of mine that explains my thoughts on that:

J-35 threat to Indian Air Force

We all saw how the superior ranged Pl15 on J10c had India in retreat we lost most likely four planes to Chinese kill chain tactics I'm concerned that the J35 may give Pakistan tactical air superiority leading to overall strategic supremacy if they plan well with china kill chain and new HQ19...

www.strategicfront.org

With PL17, J35 will certainly be more detectable as it cannot hold it in IWB, will it be detectable enough for engagement in BVR?

Relatively, yes. But remains to be seen if PAF will actually use external weapons on J-35 on Day 1. I'm guessing they won't.

Also experts, what are the types of SEAD and DEAD weapons J35 can carry in it's IWB? Maybe our resident Han @LX1111 can answer this.

The LD-10 (derived from PL-12) would be a given. I've also heard of a new longer-ranged ARM derived from PL-15 in the works, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere yet. Haven't been following those developments very closely, unfortunately.

 

[RationalGuy]

Sharing a previous post of mine that explains my thoughts on that:

J-35 threat to Indian Air Force

We all saw how the superior ranged Pl15 on J10c had India in retreat we lost most likely four planes to Chinese kill chain tactics I'm concerned that the J35 may give Pakistan tactical air superiority leading to overall strategic supremacy if they plan well with china kill chain and new HQ19...

www.strategicfront.org

Relatively, yes. But remains to be seen if PAF will actually use external weapons on J-35 on Day 1. I'm guessing they won't.



The LD-10 (derived from PL-12) would be a given. I've also heard of a new longer-ranged ARM derived from PL-15 in the works, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere yet. Haven't been following those developments very closely, unfortunately.

Regarding your post in the J35 thread, the Indian government's political standing in India also needs to be taken into account. Coming out of a conflict with a losing face will almost certainly doom any political party in power.

Imo, what likely will happen for the next 15 years until we bridge this gap is that Indian intelligence will try to predict and thwart attacks as much as possible, for this perhaps more operational freedom and internal reforms of RAW are needed and more importantly coordination between RAW and IB and other intelligence agencies has to be achieved. We need to be proactive, not reactive wtr to terrorist attacks on civilians and soldiers now.

If any major terrorist attack does happen, not unlikely with Munir and an emboldened Pakistan, then India will probably recognize the advantage PAF has and resort to limited cross border strikes as we saw in 2016, rather than an air launched campaign.

The one factor India has to consider however is a pre-emptive Pakistani strike on India due to IWT being suspended and India diverting more water from Pakistan as the years go by. In such a scenario, India must go all out, use our Naval superiority from the very beginning to absolutely crush their navy and destroy their ports, and then enforce a complete blockade in the Arabian Sea, which the Indian Navy even now is perfectly capable of achieving. As for their air force, we need to start pummeling their airbases and oil storage depots with Pralays, LRHASMs, ground launched Brahmos and Pinaka MLRS. If Pakistan strikes first, then it will most definitely be war, one which India will finish in its own terms, regardless of the early advantage PAF will gain.

 

[TARGET]

You're basically telling me that in the next conflict, IAF will have to stay away by 300 km from the LoC to avoid getting fired upon by J35 with PL15 in IWB, maybe even more if the J35 crosses the border into Indian airspace. This basically means our current AWACS will be almost useless as their range is 200-300 km only. With PL17, J35 will certainly be more detectable as it cannot hold it in IWB, will it be detectable enough for engagement in BVR?

Also experts, what are the types of SEAD and DEAD weapons J35 can carry in it's IWB? Maybe our resident Han @LX1111 can answer this.

You seem to be too worried about 5th gen fighters. IMO, these fighters won't be a threat. I said long ago, we don't need fighter planes against the Pakistani air force; rather, a 300 KM MBRL. Once Pakistani fighters are in the air, they won't be able to land back in their airfield. All the airfields are 300 KM away from the Indian border. Pakistan still doesn't have a solution for BrahMos, SCALP, and Rampage fired from the IAF fighter jets, and again, 5th generation planes are not invisible; they are low observable...any ground-based radar with high frequency can detect them, and with networked SAM, they can shot down J35. Also, they are going to operate from deep inside Pakistan; they won't take the risk to come inside Indian airspace and lose their fighter plane.

 

[redpanda]

You're basically telling me that in the next conflict, IAF will have to stay away by 300 km from the LoC to avoid getting fired upon by J35 with PL15 in IWB, maybe even more if the J35 crosses the border into Indian airspace. This basically means our current AWACS will be almost useless as their range is 200-300 km only. With PL17, J35 will certainly be more detectable as it cannot hold it in IWB, will it be detectable enough for engagement in BVR?

Also experts, what are the types of SEAD and DEAD weapons J35 can carry in it's IWB? Maybe our resident Han @LX1111 can answer this.

I mean we should always assume the worst case scenario. However I have my doubts regarding a lot of the claims coming from Pakistan. They have a habit of boasting we will buy this and that. They even deleted the particular tweet in question. J-35 is very old established news, so I think they will get that. But I have a lot of doubt regarding whether they will get KJ500, HQ-19,etc. Especially HQ-19 which doesn't have any export variant yet. China hasn't formally authorised development of any export variant of HQ-19 yet. Ofc we should always be prepared for that, because at the end Chinese our main adversary.

And about J-35 will they give Pakistan the actual PL-15? Or just ask them to use the PL-15Es (which only has 145km range at 20km launch altitude) with it? Again i too think we should assume the worst case scenario that they get the actual PL-15 and prepare for it but still these questions are worth raising.

 

[randomradio]

You're basically telling me that in the next conflict, IAF will have to stay away by 300 km from the LoC to avoid getting fired upon by J35 with PL15 in IWB, maybe even more if the J35 crosses the border into Indian airspace. This basically means our current AWACS will be almost useless as their range is 200-300 km only. With PL17, J35 will certainly be more detectable as it cannot hold it in IWB, will it be detectable enough for engagement in BVR?

Also experts, what are the types of SEAD and DEAD weapons J35 can carry in it's IWB? Maybe our resident Han @LX1111 can answer this.

Even as early as 10 years ago, the J-35 would have been a serious threat. But today's radars can detect and track shaping-based stealth jets from long distances via cooperative techniques. We already have such radars operational (Israeli and Russian tech).

Current standards of stealth does not negate or destroy radar signals but just reflects them away from the original source. Now we just place multiple radars at different points as part of a single network allowing the reflected energy to be picked up by a different radar. So the network now defeats stealth. Over the next 5 years fighter radars will do the same as well. Currently only Rafale F4 can do it, perhaps Gripen E too, and Typhoon will join the list soon with an AESA upgrade. Hopefully LCA Mk2 and MKI MLU will come with it right from the start. Eventually radar satellites will do it too.

PL-17 is a big threat to AWACS. Its public range of 400 km is underestimated. The PAF doesn't need to equip it internally either, the range is more than sufficient to launch from safe distances. Internal carriage is only necessary when things are dicey, like the J-36's need to operate above the USN. The same applies for large SEAD/DEAD weapons that don't fit inside WBs. Our AWACS will need to operate in areas where PL-15s and PL-17s can be intercepted by SAMs or escort jets.

J-35 will use the CM-102 and LS-6 for SEAD. Both fit into WBs. CM-102 is like Rudram-1 and LS-6 is a glide/powered bomb.

 

[RationalGuy]

I mean we should always assume the worst case scenario. However I have my doubts regarding a lot of the claims coming from Pakistan. They have a habit of boasting we will buy this and that. They even deleted the particular tweet in question. J-35 is very old established news, so I think they will get that. But I have a lot of doubt regarding whether they will get KJ500, HQ-19,etc. Especially HQ-19 which doesn't have any export variant yet. China hasn't formally authorised development of any export variant of HQ-19 yet. Ofc we should always be prepared for that, because at the end Chinese our main adversary.

And about J-35 will they give Pakistan the actual PL-15? Or just ask them to use the PL-15Es (which only has 145km range at 20km launch altitude) with it? Again i too think we should assume the worst case scenario that they get the actual PL-15 and prepare for it but still these questions are worth raising.

Chinese will 100% give the real deal PL15 imo. Because not only do they want to contain India they want to see how their actual weapon systems work in real combat scenarios. PL15 is their mainstay BVRM and they will definitely want to get data about its effectiveness. Same can be said about KJ500 at least. Leave KJ500 China (eventually) wants to give their latest KJ3000 to Pakistam, but that is likely more than 5 years down the road. By the time KJ500 and KJ3000 come, we need to be producing Astra Mk2 and we need to be testing our AWACS killer Gandiva.

Even as early as 10 years ago, the J-35 would have been a serious threat. But today's radars can detect and track shaping-based stealth jets from long distances via cooperative techniques. We already have such radars operational (Israeli and Russian tech).

Current standards of stealth does not negate or destroy radar signals but just reflects them away from the original source. Now we just place multiple radars at different points as part of a single network allowing the reflected energy to be picked up by a different radar. So the network now defeats stealth. Over the next 5 years fighter radars will do the same as well. Currently only Rafale F4 can do it, perhaps Gripen E too, and Typhoon will join the list soon with an AESA upgrade. Hopefully LCA Mk2 and MKI MLU will come with it right from the start. Eventually radar satellites will do it too.

PL-17 is a big threat to AWACS. Its public range of 400 km is underestimated. The PAF doesn't need to equip it internally either, the range is more than sufficient to launch from safe distances. Internal carriage is only necessary when things are dicey, like the J-36's need to operate above the USN. The same applies for large SEAD/DEAD weapons that don't fit inside WBs. Our AWACS will need to operate in areas where PL-15s and PL-17s can be intercepted by SAMs or escort jets.

J-35 will use the CM-102 and LS-6 for SEAD. Both fit into WBs. CM-102 is like Rudram-1 and LS-6 is a glide/powered bomb.

Can our Astra Mk3 potentially reach 400 km? Is its 340 km range understated? And also, it is stated that our Gandiva can do about 190 km at more conventional altitudes (8 km iirc) where fighter jets can fly. I'm guessing since 400 km range of PL17 is understated, PL17 can do at least 250 km at such altitudes?

 

[redpanda]

Chinese will 100% give the real deal PL15 imo. Because not only do they want to contain India they want to see how their actual weapon systems work in real combat scenarios. PL15 is their mainstay BVRM and they will definitely want to get data about its effectiveness. Same can be said about KJ500 at least. Leave KJ500 China (eventually) wants to give their latest KJ3000 to Pakistam, but that is likely more than 5 years down the road. By the time KJ500 and KJ3000 come, we need to be producing Astra Mk2 and we need to be testing our AWACS killer Gandiva.


Can our Astra Mk3 potentially reach 400 km? Is its 340 km range understated? And also, it is stated that our Gandiva can do about 190 km at more conventional altitudes (8 km iirc) where fighter jets can fly. I'm guessing since 400 km range of PL17 is understated, PL17 can do at least 250 km at such altitudes?

We also need to increase the number of AWACs we have. Because in future conflict we might lose a few. 20ish atleast... Don't AEW&C's have an extended range mode? So can't our AEW&Cs just use that to stay out of the range of PL-17s? @randomradio @RationalGuy Noob question but what are the limitations of this?

 

[RationalGuy]

We also need to increase the number of AWACs we have. Because in future conflict we might lose a few. 20ish atleast..

Oh by next conflict we need Netra Mk2 let alone Netra Mk1a. By the time our next date with the property dealers come, we need fo have imo;
1.) SU30 MKI MLU.
2.) Tejas Mk2.
3.) Tejas Mk1a.
4.) RudraM 1 AND RudraM 2 ARM and A2G weapons.
5.) Astra Mk2 and Gandiva.
6.) 800 km Brahmos on all 3 domains, air, land, sea, and (me hoping for this) ALARM version of Brahmos.
7.) Netra Mk1a AWACS (all 6) and at least 1-2 Netra Mk2 AWACS.
8.) LRHASM, Pralays deployed in good numbers, say 50-60 at least.

If we have all of the above, even if Porkis have J35 it's not gonna fare well for them even in a limited conflict. Cuz we can launch standoff weapons and even conduct SEAD from standoff ranges where their BVRMs can't reach while taking advantage of their poor strategic depth and hitting their aircraft, radars and airbases deep inside their territory using Gandiva and Meteors launched at high altitude and guided by Netra Mk2 AWACS.

Not to mention our ballistic and hypersonic weapons will be raining on them like anything lol.

 

[redpanda]

Since PL-17 like long range anti-AWAC missiles are becoming common. Why nobody has tried to outrange those by building AWAC radars with even larger range like 600km+ something like that? Ik there are issues with cooling, power management, radar horizon, etc.

 

[screambowl]

Since PL-17 like long range anti-AWAC missiles are becoming common. Why nobody has tried to outrange those by building AWAC radars with even larger range like 600km+ something like that? Ik there are issues with cooling, power management, radar horizon, etc.

It depends on that aircraft's radar which is firing the missile, irrespective of missile's range. Plus if the range of awacs is higher it can also be picked by RWR on enemy radar.

 

[randomradio]

Can our Astra Mk3 potentially reach 400 km? Is its 340 km range understated? And also, it is stated that our Gandiva can do about 190 km at more conventional altitudes (8 km iirc) where fighter jets can fly. I'm guessing since 400 km range of PL17 is understated, PL17 can do at least 250 km at such altitudes?

Gandiva's published range is an objective, whether they don't meet it or surpass it requires testing. And they are unlikely to tell us their true range.

PL-17 should be able to exceed 500 km.

 

[randomradio]

We also need to increase the number of AWACs we have. Because in future conflict we might lose a few. 20ish atleast... Don't AEW&C's have an extended range mode? So can't our AEW&Cs just use that to stay out of the range of PL-17s? @randomradio @RationalGuy Noob question but what are the limitations of this?

An AWACS has no choice but to operate within the range of the PL-17 within our operational environment. If it cannot, then it will largely be useless regardless of the number. For example, we took down an AWACS from 300 km away. The Russians lost 2 A-50s to Ukrainian SAMs too, which led to the cancelation of the A-100. The Pentagon may also partly or fully cancel their E-7 AWACS program.

For more than a decade now, my opinion has been that AWACS won't be survivable during war. If any incoming missile cannot be intercepted, which by uitself is risky, then AWACS will have to fall back to beyond its ability to assist in the battle area. Rather we need drones and radar satellites.

Going by current plans, we are expected to operate 21 AWACS if the A330 program goes ahead.