MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Aniruddha]

I mean we are spending $36 billion (significant portion of IAF's capex) and still not getting a platform capable of defending us against the Chinese. More or less, despite spending $36 billion, we will be on the same position as we currently are, capability wise : capable of defeating Pakistan but not able to fight against Chinese. So then what exact advantage / capability is this $36 billion bringing for us? Spending so much money on a jet which is becoming technologically incapable of fighting against new next gen platforms is foolishness. It only makes sense to spend this much money only on a 5th gen platform (which is not possible for us).

A better decision would be to get more 36 / 54 Rafales, expedite the development and certification of Tejas Mk2 and AMCA and induct those indigenous platforms in large numbers (> 300 jets each).

As I see it, we will be spending an eye watering amount of $36 billion that in the very near future be relegated to conducting A2G strikes from stand-off ranges utilizing VLO cruise missiles (read SCALP or whatever its successor is) and stay away from long range BVR fights as much as possible.
If we are to spend this sort of amount, getting Indian weapons integrated onto the Rafale is non-negotiable, especially missiles like Rudram-2 and Rudram-3 because there is no real analogue available with the French at the moment and we need them in order to conduct SEAD/DEAD missions from stand-off ranges.

 

[Lolwa]

Bro, F-16s were specifically given to them to be used against India. Do you really believe that F-16s were there to counter terrorists, lol.

Anyways, just answer one question: If USA and Europe go to war over Greenland, do you think UK, Italy and other European countries will be able to use F-35s against USA itself?

They possibly could atleast in a limited way.

 

[Lolwa]

There is no such contest for mk2. They will do sone level of local manufacturing and MRO for M88 as part of the deal.

We just need to focus on the su-57 if any new tech has to be procured. The answer to all our problems lie in Tejas mk1a and kaveri. We need to order atleast 500-1000 of Tejas. No country will share deep tech of their hardware.

 

[Rajput Lion]

They possibly could atleast in a limited way.

Nope. They can't. Without Lockheed providing them the initiation codes, they won't even take off, forget about firing weapons against USAF F-22s or F-35s or USN's F/A-18E/F.

When you buy an American cutting-edge weapon like F-35, you're actually selling out your autonomy for American hegemony and dictate. Period.

 

[Sathya]

We got to appreciate atleast we are buying both F4 and F5 versions unlike in the past where we buy only one standard..

But looking back..

2016 -- we bought 36 F3R standard
2025 -- we signed for 26 Rafale M
2026 -- we are buying 90 F4 standard
2036 -- most likely we ll get 24 F5 standard.

We are standardising all to F4 * standard.

We could have clubbed Naval Rafale deal with this 114 deal.. missed chance or intentionally done ?

So total Rafales for India
built in France will be 36+26+24 (F5)= 86
Built in India will be 90

From the news we read so far 114 deal wil also include fly away purchase of 12 to 16.

So total Rafales built in France for India will be between 86 to 100.

 

[Ashwin]

 

[Saaho]

we dont need the R37M or the especially the k77ME with the astra mk2 and astra mk3 although the r37M might be useful if they allow production in india.

I dont think we will see astra mk3 or mk2 in operation before 2050 or so. just remember, we got mk1 in operation barely -- just lsp quantities-- last two years ago. Its a project running since 1980s.

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012747271188746410

i think i was the first one to raise word " desi weapon lobby ", glad that others are also come out against this lobby by calling name.

 

[spice]

To be frank, this is a very simplistic and misleading take on a subject that needs far more nuance and an understanding of how the technology actually works.There are major inaccuracies in that video from @ThePrintIndia. Have you seen the gun camera footage from Sqn Ldr Prashant “ Bandy” Bundela’s MiG-21?Firstly, it was a Russian R-60, not a French Matra, that was launched at the Pakistan Navy’s Atlantique MPA.

The vertical separation was less than 200 feet.Integrating IR missiles like the Matra is fairly simple compared to integrating radar-guided missiles like the Astra.IR (infrared) heat-seeking missiles such as the Matra have IR seekers, much like MANPADS (Igla/Anza/Stinger for reference). Once launched, they lock onto the target’s IR (heat) signature to engage it. This does not require much onboard computing.

There are, of course, further nuances in the heat-seeking domain — IIR seekers, cooled seekers, onboard countermeasures against flares, IRST integration, etc. — but that is a discussion for another day.With radar-guided missiles like Astra, Meteor, or PL-15, the onboard fire-control radar must interface with the flight computer and the mission computer.Fire control is integrated with flight-control and propulsion systems to maximize firing opportunities and increase survivability.

This is a highly complex undertaking.Without access to source codes, the @IAF_MCC will have to keep going back to Dassault for every new weapon it decides to integrate with the Rafale.DRDO, BDL, and BEL will have to share detailed performance parameters, radio-frequency data, and control parameters with MBDA and Dassault.

This is a significant risk, as such data is meant to remain extremely confidential.By sharing these key details, the capabilities of our missiles will no longer remain closely guarded secrets.Dassault will ask for a hand and a leg to integrate every new iteration of Astra, Rudram, or SAAW.Similarly, any future upgrade cannot be done without understanding how Spectra and the RBE2 communicate on the Rafale — and without access to the underlying source code.An indigenous EW pod cannot be integrated without calibrating Spectra.

The RBE2 radar cannot be upgraded without returning to the OEM.Hence, just having access to APIs or promises of integration from Dassault is not sufficient. It requires deeper access, and for the money being spent, that is a fair ask.The devil is in the details.I’ll leave the gun-cam photo here, where you can clearly see the R-60’s smoke trail as it locks onto the Atlantique’s port-side engine.

https://xcancel.com/hukum2082/status/2013121706320330781

 

[Aniruddha]

I dont think we will see astra mk3 or mk2 in operation before 2050 or so. just remember, we got mk1 in operation barely -- just lsp quantities-- last two years ago. Its a project running since 1980s.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012747271188746410

i think i was the first one to raise word " desi weapon lobby ", glad that others are also come out against this lobby by calling name.

 

[Ashwin]

https://xcancel.com/hukum2082/status/2013121706320330781

You dont need access to "source code" to integrate weapons, you need APIs considering both are following same MIL-SPEC. We dont have access to "source code" even for MKI. You are working with Sukhoi for currently planned upgrade.

These are just useless squabbles without any actual details. People who operate on and depend on the platform know more about it. You have to trust that they will make the right calls till all details are available.

 

[spice]

We dont have access to "source code" even for MKI. You are working with Sukhoi for currently planned upgrade.

We do have partial access.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1969989420309725389

 

[Bon Plan]

India sets strict conditions for $36 billion Rafale fighter jet deal under Make in India push​

India sets strict conditions for $36 billion Rafale fighter jet deal under Make in India push​

"As per the report, the Indian government has clearly stated that all 114 Rafale jets must be integrated with Indian-made weapons, missiles, and ammunition. Along with this, Dassault will be required to provide secure data links that will allow the aircraft to digitally connect with Indian radars, sensors, and command systems. These requirements have been described as “non-negotiable clauses” in the manufacturing and procurement process.
To meet these conditions, Dassault Aviation will need to make changes to the software of the Rafale’s onboard computing systems. These changes are necessary to ensure seamless integration of Indian weapons and smooth transmission of operational data within India’s defence network."

=> Yes, of course. With such a big deal it's quite obvious.

"Under the overall proposal, the majority of the 114 Rafale aircraft will be built in India, with indigenous content expected to be around 30 per cent. "

=> Strange. We have read "up to 60 to 70%" earlier.... 30% is low. Too low to be true.

 

[_Anonymous_]

India sets strict conditions for $36 billion Rafale fighter jet deal under Make in India push​

India sets strict conditions for $36 billion Rafale fighter jet deal under Make in India push​

"As per the report, the Indian government has clearly stated that all 114 Rafale jets must be integrated with Indian-made weapons, missiles, and ammunition. Along with this, Dassault will be required to provide secure data links that will allow the aircraft to digitally connect with Indian radars, sensors, and command systems. These requirements have been described as “non-negotiable clauses” in the manufacturing and procurement process.
To meet these conditions, Dassault Aviation will need to make changes to the software of the Rafale’s onboard computing systems. These changes are necessary to ensure seamless integration of Indian weapons and smooth transmission of operational data within India’s defence network."

=> Yes, of course. With such a big deal it's quite obvious.

"Under the overall proposal, the majority of the 114 Rafale aircraft will be built in India, with indigenous content expected to be around 30 per cent. "

=> Strange. We have read "up to 60 to 70%" earlier.... 30% is low. Too low to be true.

Our gold standard is Steno Shishir's columns. Anything else is taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[redpanda]

Our gold standard is Steno Shishir's columns. Anything else is taken with a pinch of salt.

Man but even his column on % of indigenous components is confusing. At one point it says 30%. But then it says upto 60% in another sentence. Probably, the government people who give him info are giving conflicting figures.

 

[babablacksheep]

Man but even his column on % of indigenous components is confusing. At one point it says 30%. But then it says upto 60% in another sentence. Probably, the government people who give him info are giving conflicting figures.

Thoery: could be at the start of indian production line indegenious content will be 30% and progressively increase over time till it reaches 60% at around later or last batches of rafale

 

[Saaho]

India sets strict conditions for $36 billion Rafale fighter jet deal under Make in India push​

India sets strict conditions for $36 billion Rafale fighter jet deal under Make in India push​

"As per the report, the Indian government has clearly stated that all 114 Rafale jets must be integrated with Indian-made weapons, missiles, and ammunition. Along with this, Dassault will be required to provide secure data links that will allow the aircraft to digitally connect with Indian radars, sensors, and command systems. These requirements have been described as “non-negotiable clauses” in the manufacturing and procurement process.
To meet these conditions, Dassault Aviation will need to make changes to the software of the Rafale’s onboard computing systems. These changes are necessary to ensure seamless integration of Indian weapons and smooth transmission of operational data within India’s defence network."

=> Yes, of course. With such a big deal it's quite obvious.

"Under the overall proposal, the majority of the 114 Rafale aircraft will be built in India, with indigenous content expected to be around 30 per cent. "

=> Strange. We have read "up to 60 to 70%" earlier.... 30% is low. Too low to be true.

If this is true then Rafales we are having right now are totally ... standalone. Not integrated in Indian defence network. No wonder they could not perform as well in May. No AWACS was present because... they were operating solo, not as a net centric warfare.

 

[Ashwin]

We do have partial access.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1969989420309725389

That is same as API access, there is no "Source Code". An indian Mission Computer was added because of lack of western MIL-STD.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Waiting for Rahul Gandhi to use the new word "Source Code" and start dharna in support of HAL.

 

[redpanda]

Waiting for Rahul Gandhi to use the new word "Source Code" and start dharna in support of HAL.

And all the defence fanbois on X would support his cancer takes. Because I don't expect anything logical coming from his mouth. Like nobody is every going to give you source code. Even Russian didn't gave us one.