MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 44 16.4%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 205 76.5%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 5 1.9%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 5 1.9%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 3.7%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 11 4.1%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 2 0.7%

  • Total voters
    268
  • Poll closed .
They let the Pakistanis use their f-16's against us. They let the Saudis use their f-15's to bomb Yemenis.
Amreekis don't care as long as you you don't F their geopolitical goals in the long term. Plus we have enough lobbying in DC to actual force the American senate and Pentagon to listen to us.
The only issue is that a lot of leverage the Americans will have against us after we get the planes.

GE 404 license production should have started instead of importing ge-404.
GE-404 has been used as a base to make to multiple planes including f18, fa-50, f-20 tigershark, b1 lancer and even the f117 nighthawk. Why would you not license produce it when even SoKo is license producing them??
What's your obsession with getting F-35 for IAF if we can't even use it effectively ? We are not usa close allies like israel. We can't even fully integrated F-35 with our IACCS.
Stealth doesn't mean it's invisible.
We already have one big problem of GE engines for MK1A & MK2...they can sabotage the whole project if they want to do so ....you want to give them more leverage by buying F-35 ?
" You were mentioning that we should have both F-35 & Su-57 ...not gonna happen ..Never ....
 
They let the Pakistanis use their f-16's against us. They let the Saudis use their f-15's to bomb Yemenis.
Amreekis don't care as long as you you don't F their geopolitical goals in the long term. Plus we have enough lobbying in DC to actual force the American senate and Pentagon to listen to us.
The only issue is that a lot of leverage the Americans will have against us after we get the planes.
Bro, F-16s were specifically given to them to be used against India. Do you really believe that F-16s were there to counter terrorists, lol.

Anyways, just answer one question: If USA and Europe go to war over Greenland, do you think UK, Italy and other European countries will be able to use F-35s against USA itself?
 
There is no such contest for mk2. They will do sone level of local manufacturing and MRO for M88 as part of the deal.
Bloomberg framed it more as a frantic search. Maybe it could be that rumors were spread to put pressure on GE. But it hasn't worked, if that was the intention. Use archive dot is, if article is not visible.


 
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Do not buy anything we cannot put our own mission computers, electronics and sensors on.

The successor of uttam aesa we will have in 2030 is what France will want to have in 2040.

What happens then? We wait for France to catch up so we can update our frontline force?

0% local manufacturing is okay, but 100% control is non negotiable.
I think the solution is TEDBF / ORCA.

Like @_Anonymous_ said , Rafale comes with entire electronics as package, we can't partly change without doing entire work .

Essentially Rafale + Amca = TEDBF
 
Rafale deal is happening because of the Delays in
MK1A , MK 2 and AMCA

If IAF was assured of timely deliveries there would be no need for Rafale

And above all Mirage 2000 , MIG 29 UPG have become Second Line of Fighters due to their Limitations of Radar and BVR missiles

So SU 30 and Rafales are holding the Fort along with S 400
Rafale is happening because of our jets could not performed as expected during 1999 kargil war in high altitude. Not because of the LCA saga.
 
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In industrial terms, an India FAL for Rafale makes sense for both France and India. DA gets to augment its production capacity while India creates jobs/industrial ecosystem across multiple locations like Nagpur, Jewar, Hyderabad, etc.

Systems level localization will happen over time as with the M2000. For example, we might be able to add a 2nd mission computer for simplifying weapons integration. But fcs, core avionics and sensors will remain off limits, imo.

When it comes to future upgrades, the IAF has shown a clear preference for the OEM, even if there were cheaper alternatives available from other vendors.

Why else would they choose DAs M2000 upgrade package costing over $2b instead of IAI? There is also the risk of losing OEM warranties and certification.
 
Rafale deal is happening because of the Delays in
MK1A , MK 2 and AMCA

If IAF was assured of timely deliveries there would be no need for Rafale

And above all Mirage 2000 , MIG 29 UPG have become Second Line of Fighters due to their Limitations of Radar and BVR missiles

So SU 30 and Rafales are holding the Fort along with S 400

I love Rafale.

But if on day 2 of Op Sindoor 2, we need to seek out Dassault to get a software update, then it's as good as the absent Mk1A.

I think the solution is TEDBF / ORCA.

Like @_Anonymous_ said , Rafale comes with entire electronics as package, we can't partly change without doing entire work .

Essentially Rafale + Amca = TEDBF

Pay the billions, but pay it on control. Fcuk local manufacturing or indigenous content.

The Mig29UPG whoops Mirage 2000I because the IAF BRD can add a new type of weapon on Mig29. BRD, not even HAL.

That's extremely important.
But fcs, core avionics and sensors will remain off limits, imo.

If Mig21 airframe has 10 more years, the IAF Mig21 in 2030 would have rocked an AESA and the Mirage 2000I would still have that useless RDY2.

Control >>>> indigenous content
 
Bloomberg framed it more as a frantic search. Maybe it could be that rumors were spread to put pressure on GE. But it hasn't worked, if that was the intention. Use archive dot is, if article is not visible.


Useless writings. Zero credibility for defence related reporting. Government has their specific people to create rumours.
 
In industrial terms, an India FAL for Rafale makes sense for both France and India. DA gets to augment its production capacity while India creates jobs/industrial ecosystem across multiple locations like Nagpur, Jewar, Hyderabad, etc.

Systems level localization will happen over time as with the M2000. For example, we might be able to add a 2nd mission computer for simplifying weapons integration. But fcs, core avionics and sensors will remain off limits, imo.

When it comes to future upgrades, the IAF has shown a clear preference for the OEM, even if there were cheaper alternatives available from other vendors.

Why else would they choose DAs M2000 upgrade package costing over $2b instead of IAI? There is also the risk of losing OEM warranties and certification.
Let me narrate an incident to you from my working experience to highlight why this entire charade of ToT , MII is a brain dead move without know why & even then there's no way you can absorb the experience for you see & you remember , you hear & you forget , you do & you understand. First principles.

Back in the day our rival came out with a Scroll Chiller Package which had the ability to produce hot water a natural by product of the refrigeration cycle , which required a few modifications to the Chiller Package.

This was more a marketing gimmick than anything as I'd explain shortly but this became a best seller among HVAC Consultants who started recommending it to budget hotels , the pharma industry etc.

The downside was production of hot water affected the output in terms of tonnage of the Chiller Package Plant meaning a 40 TR Water Cooled Chiller Package System instead of giving you a tonnage of 37-38 Tons of Air Conditioning gave you ~ 35 Tons or less.

I got into a huge debate with a Chief Engineer of a prominent German Pharma Co in Nashik who was pretty sold on the idea of a Chiller Package Plant producing hot water & before whom even verifiable calculations on how this affected the performance of the CHP in terms of tonnage output & life of the said CHP plant fell on deaf years.

Finally as a last ditch measure I asked if he was looking for a water heater or a Chilled Water Plant ? The same analogy works here. Are we looking for a FA to defend ourselves or are we creating an assembly set up not even an mfg ecosystem by assembling the Rafales here ?

Mind you , the notion of locating a strategic unit here so we have some leverage on the mfg set up doesn't quite work if vital tech & sub systems are proprietary data which will never be disclosed & held by the OEM in their home country like in this case.

IMO we're better off with getting tech offsets . That monster budget of ~ 50 billion USD will come down substantially for eventually that's what it'd cost , likely more in the vicinity of ~ 60-70 billion USD , if one were to consider LCC , upgrades , consumables , OPEX etc over the entire life cycle of the Rafales in service with the IAF.

However if Dassault Aviation is actually looking to diversify it's assembly / mfg set plus set up an MRO which is what it seems like then we should negotiate accordingly since DA is actually making a virtue out of necessity here.

Then again we don't hold much cards here as DA would've been much more amenable to such an arrangement circa 2014-18 . Not now , when their order book is overflowing , MoD can't stall negotiations as we're already running against time & don't have much latitude for negotiations etc.
 
I love Rafale.

But if on day 2 of Op Sindoor 2, we need to seek out Dassault to get a software update, then it's as good as the absent Mk1A.



Pay the billions, but pay it on control. Fcuk local manufacturing or indigenous content.

The Mig29UPG whoops Mirage 2000I because the IAF BRD can add a new type of weapon on Mig29. BRD, not even HAL.

That's extremely important.


If Mig21 airframe has 10 more years, the IAF Mig21 in 2030 would have rocked an AESA and the Mirage 2000I would still have that useless RDY2.

Control >>>> indigenous content
Do you guys have no faith in Modi? Just wait for more details to come out regarding the deal. We shall have all the required permissions from M/S Dassault to completely sync Rafale with IACCS & AFNET. Just have patience.
 
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We have to balance our Ego and Pride WITH our Twin Realities

1 ) Slow progress on Domestic programmes

2) Deteriorating IAF squadron strength

By the way MK1A is still not delivered

We have received SIX Engines so far in this Financial year
 
GE 404 license production should have started instead of importing ge-404.
GE-404 has been used as a base to make to multiple planes including f18, fa-50, f-20 tigershark, b1 lancer and even the f117 nighthawk. Why would you not license produce it when even SoKo is license producing them??
I remember reading somewhere that when the original contract for the 83 Tejas Mk1A was being worked upon, it included a clause for local manufacturing of the 99 GE F-404 engines.
However, this had resulted in a spike in the final contract price which was not agreeable because of which this clause was removed and HAL had to order these engines off the shelf from GE.

HAL had original quoted a cost estimate of Rs.59,000 crore and this involved local manufacturing of the F404 engines.

 
Are we looking for a FA to defend ourselves or are we creating an assembly set up not even an mfg ecosystem by assembling the Rafales here ?

Mind you , the notion of locating a strategic unit here so we have some leverage on the mfg set up doesn't quite work if vital tech & sub systems are proprietary data which will never be disclosed & held by the OEM in their home country like in this case.

IMO we're better off with getting tech offsets . That monster budget of ~ 50 billion USD will come down substantially for eventually that's what it'd cost , likely more in the vicinity of ~ 60-70 billion USD , if one were to consider LCC , upgrades , consumables , OPEX etc over the entire life cycle of the Rafales in service with the IAF.
GoI might be seeking to insulate itself from supply chain hiccups and the not so subtle pressure tactics from the US.

While this deal may not yield much by way of core IP, DA is likely dangling the prospect of 3rd country sales and perhaps a share of revenue on ac built in India.

This strategy is similar to the one followed by NG who signed a MoU with MDL recently on Scorpene class mfg for export sales.

DA is reported to have discussed possible collaboration on the FCAS. Ofc, much will depend on the contract.

Imo, offsets are not practical anymore. DA required a min 100 ac order to build a line in India and they've got what they asked for.

Plus, offsets from the previous deal including AUF2 triple ejection racks, AASM/Hammer, RBE-2 TR modules etc + Falcon 2000 assembly are under implementation.

Beyond this, there wouldn't be much value addition/learning for Indian industry relative to the number of ac we're buying.
 
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LCH was needed to take out mountain targets..

I think u r talking about Israel LGB that went into mirage ..

LGB can be fitted with any fighter now.
I am old enough to remember most of the mmrca events. MMRCA had started with the requirment from IAF soon after the kargil war. Still remembering the news came in printed news paper in 2000. Later that requirment turned in ti MMRCA
 
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Do you guys have no faith in Modi? Just wait for more details to come out regarding the deal. We shall have all the required permissions from M/S Dassault to completely sync Rafale with IACCS & AFNET. Just have patience.
@vstol jovkey used to badh french with in an year after we signed the deal for 36 rafale, because they didn't givebthe help needed for Kaveri engine. So yeas, modi too can be.......
 
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GoI might be seeking to insulate itself from supply chain hiccups and the not so subtle pressure tactics from the US.

IMO it's of limited efficacy. In case of the US for the GE F -414 lines it made sense for the US is a fickle partner. Besides we got access to the latest mfg technologies in TF where our experience & expertise leaves much to be desired.

In case of FA mfg if HAL lacks that kind of expertise they could engage anyone from BAe to DA to LM as a consultant for expertise but I get the larger point you're attempting to put across.
While this deal may not yield much by way of core IP, DA is likely dangling the prospect of 3rd country sales and perhaps a share of revenue on ac built in India.
As of now Reliance is out. We don't know whether DA plans on taking on a local partner & if so what shape shall such a JV take. This would be within the ambit of the MoD decision making powers who'd have to decide what kind & % of local mfg to permit & if a local partner is mandatory ?!
This strategy is similar to the one followed by NG who signed a MoU with MDL recently on Scorpene class mfg for export sales.
Yes with MDL being the local labour contractor . Nothing more nor less. Upto MDL & MoD to decide if this is the way forward or they take a leaf out of RoK's or closer home from L&T's book.
DA is reported to have discussed possible collaboration on the FCAS. Ofc, much will depend on the contract.
I've no doubt whatsoever in my mind that both MoD & IAF aren't that forward looking at all. Ideally MoD ought to have asked ADA & IAF to start studies for a 6th Gen FA as a replacement to the MKI.

It's only after they get a handle on what we require we can explore possibilities of a JV or limited tech transfer with France.
Imo, offsets are not practical anymore. DA required a min 100 ac order to build a line in India and they've got what they asked for.

Plus, offsets from the previous deal including AUF2 triple ejection racks, AASM/Hammer, RBE-2 TR modules etc + Falcon 2000 assembly are under implementation.

Beyond this, there wouldn't be much value addition/learning for Indian industry relative to the number of ac we're buying.
I was referring to linking in monetary terms off sets from the order for the 114 nos MRFA / MMRCA 2.0 with the costs sunk into the development of the proposed 120 KN TF apart from savings on the sunk costs to establish assembly / mfg facilities here for those 114 nos FA which in turn jacks up the procurement costs significantly to the tune of ~ 50% at least if not more as compared to imports from France.
 
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I mean we are spending $36 billion (significant portion of IAF's capex) and still not getting a platform capable of defending us against the Chinese. More or less, despite spending $36 billion, we will be on the same position as we currently are, capability wise : capable of defeating Pakistan but not able to fight against Chinese. So then what exact advantage / capability is this $36 billion bringing for us? Spending so much money on a jet which is becoming technologically incapable of fighting against new next gen platforms is foolishness. It only makes sense to spend this much money only on a 5th gen platform (which is not possible for us).

A better decision would be to get more 36 / 54 Rafales, expedite the development and certification of Tejas Mk2 and AMCA and induct those indigenous platforms in large numbers (> 300 jets each).
 
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