MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 11.8%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 160 78.8%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.5%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.4%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 2 1.0%

  • Total voters
    203

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,559
1,168
switzerland
Are you referring to some specific areas, because it doesn't look like the SH has better flight charactersitics than the Rafale? The Rafale has better AoA, turn rates, roll rate, slow speed, acceleration, G performance etc.

in SH wing profile is between partially damped and negatively damped, close to negatively damped, in Rafael the wing profile slightly near to partially damped than negatively damped.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
2,075
905
France
Shouldn't it be the reverse?
No. Rafale is good in all fields.

A french high rank pilot said nearly 10 years ago that "Rafale may not be the best of the world in one special role, but it is very good in all".
Are you referring to some specific areas, because it doesn't look like the SH has better flight charactersitics than the Rafale? The Rafale has better AoA, turn rates, roll rate, slow speed, acceleration, G performance etc.
In 1999 Rafale M in F1 standard was opposed to F14 tomcat in WVR : it was as the french pilots said "a butcherry". Against F/A 18 it was harder, but it took no more than 3 turns to be in its back.
And we all know that SH18 agility and handling are not better than those of legacy F18.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
By 2024 the Chinese will have 200-300 j20's. It's still no quick enough.

Yep. No chance. After the MRFA deal is signed, we will need a Su-57 deal. Whether it's in the form of an emergency GTG for 2-3 squadrons or license production of 6 squadrons, we need Su-57s, with the first squadron operational around 2030.
 
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Lolwa

Well-Known member
Feb 6, 2020
1,212
834
Delhi
Yep. No chance. After the MRFA deal is signed, we will need a Su-57 deal. Whether it's in the form of an emergency GTG for 2-3 squadrons or license production of 6 squadrons, we need Su-57s, with the first squadron operational around 2030.
The problem is even su57's will take atleast 4 years from order so we will only get 5th gen fighters in 2026-2028. F35 is a no-go. By that time don't know how many more j-20's they will add along with j-31. We need to produce atleast 300-500 tejas mk1a if we want to deter the Chinese.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
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India
The problem is even su57's will take atleast 4 years from order so we will only get 5th gen fighters in 2026-2028. F35 is a no-go. By that time don't know how many more j-20's they will add along with j-31.

I am actually looking at a timeline of 2026-27 for an order so deliveries can happen from 2030 onwards. It can't be helped, the Chinese have simply won the game this decade. And the next decade, they should begin inducting a 6th gen jet after 2030, so that's gonna have to be our target.

We need to produce atleast 300-500 tejas mk1a if we want to deter the Chinese.

This isn't a street fight, we need capability first, not numbers. 300-500 Mk1As will make a lot of aces for the PLAAF.
 

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,953
941
Mumbai
I am actually looking at a timeline of 2026-27 for an order so deliveries can happen from 2030 onwards. It can't be helped, the Chinese have simply won the game this decade. And the next decade, they should begin inducting a 6th gen jet after 2030, so that's gonna have to be our target.
Do we have that much money? Mrfa will eat away a lot of money, afterwards we will not left with budget purchase another new aircraft.
And i dont even think goi even sanctions mrfa altogether.
This isn't a street fight, we need capability first, not numbers. 300-500 Mk1As will make a lot of aces for the PLAAF.
People are having lot fantasies about indigenous products , ys its our product. But indigenous doesn't means that it will be a silver bullet.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
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India
Do we have that much money? Mrfa will eat away a lot of money, afterwards we will not left with budget purchase another new aircraft.
And i dont even think goi even sanctions mrfa altogether.

By then, we will. When China had the same economic strength as we will presumably have by the end of the decade, they were inducting 100-150 jets a year, whereas I am talking about inducting 50-60 jets a year. Also, we inducted three different types of fighter jets simultaneously in the last 5 years, so we already have a history of doing it.

Between 2025 and 2030, there's gonna be a nice long gap where we will only induct 16+ LCAs before MRFA begins delivery in 2030, so there's a lot of space left for a large order of fighters. Considering we spent all of 2009-2015 inducting 25-28 MKIs a year, it's obvious a lot of excess capacity will left over between 2025-30 when we are inducting a cheaper jet than the MKI. This is where I believe the Su-57 will fit in.
 
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jk007

Member
Apr 9, 2020
51
30
Boston, USA
a) can rafale stand against an FOC F-35? If I did not mis-understand, the French members mock the time slippage of F-35, but not the aircraft itself.
b) why not India buy f-35? when China will field their 5th generation fighters against India very soon
C) if USA struggled so much with f-35 development, then how come Russia (which is much less tech capable) able to produce a brilliant su-57? Lot of hyperbole on su-57??
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
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India
a) The Finnish competition should settle that as long as both jets get shortlisted.

b) Nah. The air force don't need it.

c) The Russians follow the evolutionary approach while the Americans have designed the F-35 using the big bang approach. A lot of stuff that's taking time on the F-35 was slowly developed by the Russians and introduced over many years on the Su-30, Su-34 and Su-35 before starting work on the Su-57. The Su-57 is also WIP and has taken 15 years to date, with an expected completion date of 20 years. So the Russians will have taken roughly the same amount of time even with their evolutionary approach. Plus the Americans screwed up quite a bit. The Russians haven't screwed up as much. At the very least they are waiting for the completion of the jet's development before placing large orders.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,323
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India
I also agree with mass producing Mk1A and Mk2 when available.
I know MRCA is essential. But to increase squad strength beyond 40, we cannot import all the way.

Let define squad numbets that are good to have.. And no. Of Light fighter squads required and fill that requirements with LCA..

No point in flying older jets that are outdated and having even lesser squadrons to protect our air space. .
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
I also agree with mass producing Mk1A and Mk2 when available.
I know MRCA is essential. But to increase squad strength beyond 40, we cannot import all the way.

Let define squad numbets that are good to have.. And no. Of Light fighter squads required and fill that requirements with LCA..

No point in flying older jets that are outdated and having even lesser squadrons to protect our air space. .

We have already settled on 40 squadrons for now.

13 MKI, 8 Rafale/MRFA, 6 LCA Mk1/A, 6 LCA Mk2 and 7 AMCA. The remaining 2 squadrons will likely go towards MRFA. Or even an emergency purchase of a different fighter, like the Su-57. Which is why I have always suspected the remaining 2 squadrons could go towards more Rafale or Su-57 before 2030.
 
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Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
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We have already settled on 40 squadrons for now.

13 MKI, 8 Rafale/MRFA, 6 LCA Mk1/A, 6 LCA Mk2 and 7 AMCA. The remaining 2 squadrons will likely go towards MRFA. Or even an emergency purchase of a different fighter, like the Su-57. Which is why I have always suspected the remaining 2 squadrons could go towards more Rafale or Su-57 before 2030.
Above said 40 squads enough to deal with 2 fronts in 2035 ?
Don't we have to increase the squad numbers if not the quality.?
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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Above said 40 squads enough to deal with 2 fronts in 2035 ?
Don't we have to increase the squad numbers if not the quality.?

Common sense says we need to take Pakistan out before then. If Pakistan doesn't implode on its own, then we will have to find a military solution ourselves.

Anyway this doesn't count drones. Role-specific drones will add to the numbers. The IUSAV will be better than any fighter jet we have in the ground attack role. 150-200 of these drones will be no different from an equal number of fighter jets. An equal number of air superiority drones should also be added to the mix eventually. Plus attack helicopters will add to the numbers for CAS.
 
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Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
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India
Common sense says we need to take Pakistan out before then. If Pakistan doesn't implode on its own, then we will have to find a military solution ourselves.

Anyway this doesn't count drones. Role-specific drones will add to the numbers. The IUSAV will be better than any fighter jet we have in the ground attack role. 150-200 of these drones will be no different from an equal number of fighter jets. An equal number of air superiority drones should also be added to the mix eventually. Plus attack helicopters will add to the numbers for CAS.
My thoughts on this, Even after reading multiple occasions aren't changing.
Maybe I belong to the old school of thought.
Couldn't trust drone that much i guess.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
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India
My thoughts on this, Even after reading multiple occasions aren't changing.
Maybe I belong to the old school of thought.
Couldn't trust drone that much i guess.

That's where the world is quickly headed towards though.


Also there are two kinds of drones, one is remotely operated and the other performs missions largely on its own, under the direction of another aircraft. And as you already know, remote-controlled drones have been in use for over 30 years now, so it's proven technology.
 
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