MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 11.8%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 161 79.3%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.5%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.4%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 2 1.0%

  • Total voters
    203

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
6,894
4,273
The biggest problem with SH is its long nose which restricts its approach alpha to just 8.1* and also its launch Alpha from CATOBAR. Even in Low speed combat it suffers from poor forward visibility due to its long nose which houses its main gun. In a knife fight at low speeds, alpha and visibility is crucial especially when you go into scissors fight, either horizontal or vertical. But in case of launch from STOBAR, you do not have problems of alpha and visibility as you go off a ramp. Do you know that SH sinks 10ft below deck even after best CAT launch. Why does it happen? It happens because the cushion of air under the wings suddenly disappears when the aircraft leaves the deck in a flat trajectory. In a STOBAR the aircraft leaves the deck in an upward trajectory so the sudden loss of greound effect lift does not cause the aircraft to loose lift. It adds to the lift of the aircraft due to launch angle and provides a subdued thrust vectoring as the component of thrust adds to the lift as a function of VxTxsintheta. Theta being the body angle of the aircraft during launch.
A fighter pilot must know his machine very well and should avoid going into regimes where he may get exposed. I had seen the much touted video of Rafale getting a lock on F-22. I dissected it for you. Winning a combat against an Idiot is easy but against seasoned guys, its very difficult. IAF ran circles around USAF in cope 2004 with Mig-21s. And who can doubt that a Mig-21 Bison shot down a F-16. Machine itself maybe outstanding but what matters is the man behind machine. Even in 1965 war we had a far inferior French aircraft fighting off F-86 Sabres piloted by Indians and shooting down couple of them.

Sir , in case of Pakistan Navy
We will see a intense battle in the Sea on and around the Maritime Border between Gujarat and Pakistan

Their Orions and Other MPA along with JF 17 and Mirage V will attack our Frigates and Submarines at around 250 KM away from Karachi

This recent photography of our Submarine was one such message

In such a scenario ,
the Importance of A having a Large number of BVR equipped fighters
At Bhuj , Naliya and Jamnagar cannot be denied

In other Words , IAF support is Needed by the NAVY also before it can attack and block Karachi
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,536
9,621
India
Why would we need F18, when tedbf can come online in 203x ?

F414 enhanced version is not going into USN orders , 100 F18 in 4 years.
Maybe it ll take time.

Are we going to lease F18?

TEDBF is a 15-year project. The MRCBF is for the next few years. The navy needs 60-90 jets for 2 carriers, but they have only 40+ now. The earlier option was more Mig-29s, but the IN now wants CATOBAR capable jets, hence SH or Rafale. Plus the Mig-29K isn't a real carrier fighter.

No clue if we are gonna lease or buy, but it looks like the IN will buy, they have the budget for it.
 
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vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
5,988
11,735
New Delhi
Sir , in case of Pakistan Navy
We will see a intense battle in the Sea on and around the Maritime Border between Gujarat and Pakistan

Their Orions and Other MPA along with JF 17 and Mirage V will attack our Frigates and Submarines at around 250 KM away from Karachi

This recent photography of our Submarine was one such message

In such a scenario ,
the Importance of A having a Large number of BVR equipped fighters
At Bhuj , Naliya and Jamnagar cannot be denied

In other Words , IAF support is Needed by the NAVY also before it can attack and block Karachi
Why do we need to go within 250km of Karachi? We can fire Brahmos from a much larger distance. Bhuj and Jamnagar are two airfields to take care of Indian Coastline along with many civilian airfields which will be used for fighter operations. Carrrier Battle group will tie down PAF assets to the west as the CBG may strike from Persian gulf side.
 

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,625
1,182
switzerland
Why do we need to go within 250km of Karachi? We can fire Brahmos from a much larger distance. Bhuj and Jamnagar are two airfields to take care of Indian Coastline along with many civilian airfields which will be used for fighter operations. Carrrier Battle group will tie down PAF assets to the west as the CBG may strike from Persian gulf side.

Will they allow from Persian gulf? So may be that's why India relies on frontal direction of conflict. And thats how they have set their demands for IAF procurement.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
6,894
4,273
Will they allow from Persian gulf? So may be that's why India relies on frontal direction of conflict. And thats how they have set their demands for IAF procurement.

In Addition to Orions , JF 17 and Mirage V , Pakistan Navy has installed Shore Based Anti Ship Missile Batteries

That has to be the First Target

So Basically we can say that Both Army and Navy cannot function without IAF support
 
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Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
2,138
941
France
Impossible. You can never compare a 20*SB wing with LERX with a 48*SB wing with Canards. The lifting capability of SH is far superior to Rafale. We are comparing 45.7 sqm wing of a 24.5t aircraft with 46.5 sqm wing of a 30t aircraft. Wing loading is a function of CL and if CL is high, a smaller wing can have far higher wingloading. CL is also dependent on SB angle. Canards is not the spinach of Popeye which will give out of the world lifting capability to rafale. You probably forgot that SH is negatively stable and so its tail provides lift. The SH compared to C/D varients is 25% bigger and yet has a landing speed 10kts lower than C/D variants.


Even I don't.
Dassault is the world master in delta wings.
Canards are not always magical (see for exemple EF2000 : not better than M2000), but in the Rafale case (and probably Gripen also) they are close coupled and it changes everything to the small speed lifting capacity and probably agilty also.
The US specialists (and the french navy top brass) were very reluctant to this solution for a carrier fighter. The result is bright and called Rafale.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,536
9,621
India
If we go for 36 aircrafts it's better we go for the f15-EX rather than the fa/18



facepalm.jpg


sonia-facepalm.jpg




 

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,625
1,182
switzerland
In Addition to Orions , JF 17 and Mirage V , Pakistan Navy has installed Shore Based Anti Ship Missile Batteries

That has to be the First Target

So Basically we can say that Both Army and Navy cannot function without IAF support

Naval infrastructure of Pakistan will be defended by HQ9. Its just that now the cost of taking them out will be more than few months back for India.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
5,988
11,735
New Delhi
Dassault is the world master in delta wings.
Canards are not always magical (see for exemple EF2000 : not better than M2000), but in the Rafale case (and probably Gripen also) they are close coupled and it changes everything to the small speed lifting capacity and probably agilty also.
The US specialists (and the french navy top brass) were very reluctant to this solution for a carrier fighter. The result is bright and called Rafale.
My son is doing his integrated B.Tech+M.Tech in Aerospace engineering. He got an award from NASA beating 80 top univs of the world which included IITs from India in designing a Moon Rover. He finished his first year with CGPA of 9.74. I was unhappy as he did not get 100%. His professor told him about canards and how they do wonders. I shared with him my own CFD analysis of canards vs an unstable LERX-wing-Tail design and he countered his Professor with the data. And his entire Aerospace faculty was stunned. As I told you, Do not compare SH with Rafale for very many reasons. Rafale is good in EW but not in aerodynamics.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
2,138
941
France
Naval infrastructure of Pakistan will be defended by HQ9. Its just that now the cost of taking them out will be more than few months back for India.
HQ9 is, as all chinese weapons, not war tested. Is it a dumb or an asset? A million dollar question.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
2,138
941
France
Rafale is good in EW but not in aerodynamics.
It is not verified by facts :
Rafale is the sole fighter able to carry a load equal to its net weight.
It is one of the most agile fighter of the world without thrust vectoring.
It has a very comfortable range for its size thanks to it's very evolved aero.
Before it all thought a delta canards was unproper for a carrier use, and the french carrier is among the smallest of the world (for catobar one).
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,092
1,035
Mumbai
HQ9 is, as all chinese weapons, not war tested. Is it a dumb or an asset? A million dollar question.
We all know at D max, no air to air missile will make a kill. But when f16 had fire its bvr missiles on iaf at dmax , our pilot go on cold.
Basically, wheather hq9 is battle tested or not, we are going to considered it as a real threat.
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
6,894
4,273
As I told you, Do not compare SH with Rafale for very many reasons. Rafale is good in EW but not in aerodynamics.

If we buy Rafale M for our Carriers , then they will be fighting J 16 of PLAAF and JF 17 Of PAF

Both of which can be defeated by Meteor and Spectra

We wont be fighting F 18s in any case

But on the political side , the Democratic party will be Ruling in the White House and The Congress from NOW on

Simply because of the Demographic changes -- white population declining

Democratic Party is full of LOONIES
Who will trouble India on Kashmir and
" Minority Rights "

Taliban victory has only quietened them for a While , but we can expect them and the Leftist Media like NY Times to go on an Anti India Campaign
Anytime in Future
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,536
9,621
India
Do not compare SH with Rafale for very many reasons. Rafale is good in EW but not in aerodynamics.

Are you referring to some specific areas, because it doesn't look like the SH has better flight charactersitics than the Rafale? The Rafale has better AoA, turn rates, roll rate, slow speed, acceleration, G performance etc.
 
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