Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

[Ankit Kumar]

Greece and the Rafale - Press kits

Saint-Cloud, France, September 12, 2020 – Greece announced today its intention to acquire 18 Rafales to equip its air force. © Dassault Aviation - C. Cosmao

www.dassault-aviation.com

So, These are old airframes not the 2000-5. Can be used for spares i guess.

If we are looking to use our Mirages beyond 2035, then stock up on these 2nd hand airframes. Valuable sources of spares.

 

[Sathya]

If we are looking to use our Mirages beyond 2035, then stock up on these 2nd hand airframes. Valuable sources of spares.

If Tejas mk1A is satisfactory, Mirage won't be extended beyond 2035. We would have built 40 upg + 83 + 97 Tejas by then.

If anything I would buy flying squads now as interim to retire our older jets.

 

[Ashwin]

They are old airframes, but have been upgraded to 2000-5 standards. The EG became EGM after that.

But the IAF is still averse to using second-hand jets.

I dont think so. 15 new build + 10 upgrade which was done in 2000’s. Those still remain in service.

@Picdelamirand-oil

 

[randomradio]

I dont think so. 15 new build + 10 upgrade which was done in 2000’s. Those still remain in service.

@Picdelamirand-oil

Analysis: A new chapter for the Hellenic Air Force

After delivery of the first six Rafale DG/EGs to 332 Mira of the Hellenic Air Force, Babak Taghvaee reports on the future of the squadron and the fate of its Mirage 2000-SG3s

www.key.aero

In September 2020, the Hellenic Air Force had 32 Mirage 2000s left in service with the 114 Combat Wing at Tanagra. Twenty-four were Mirage 2000-5BG/EGs with RDY-2 radars operated by 331 Mira. The other eight were Mirage 2000BGM/ EGMs equipped with RDM radars and in service with 332 Mira. The latter unit had ten more Mirage 2000EGMs in storage. The 18 Rafales were scheduled to be delivered on stream from 2022.

They have 50 jets out of a total of 55 bought. So they will likely continue using those 24 jets, and the remaining 8+10 they wanna sell, 'cause they are being replaced by the Rafales.

So the EGM version is for the older upgraded version, whereas the newer ones have the 05 attached to their designation. Okay, that makes sense.

So yeah, you're right. We either use these as a spares bin or upgrade them. But the Greeks intend to make money out of the sale, so it's gonna be expensive for either use.

 

[Hydra]

Joke... Extending the life of an aircraft as old as F16, but irony is unlike F16 the production line of Mirage is already closed by the OEM.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I dont think so. 15 new build + 10 upgrade which was done in 2000’s. Those still remain in service.

@Picdelamirand-oil

For the Greeks, these Mirages were useful because of their ability to fire AM-39s. For India, the P8I Greek Mirage combo could be a formidable weapon against enemy ships, providing highly effective low-altitude strike guidance, otherwise it would be used for spare parts.

 

[randomradio]

I dont think so. 15 new build + 10 upgrade which was done in 2000’s. Those still remain in service.

@Picdelamirand-oil

With the addition of 5 Mk1As, the IAF's plan has become unpredictable again. From a simpler 9-10 squadrons each of LCA Mk2 and Rafale alongside 6 LCA Mk1/A squadrons, we now do not know how Mk2 and Rafales numbers will be managed with all that extra space taken up by Mk1A.

If Mk2 and MRFA end up with just 6 squadrons each, then we will have 7 squadrons left for AMCA for a total of 45 squadrons. But AMCA will come in late, so we will need older jets to make up for the deficiency, that's at least 5 squadrons assuming 2 AMCA Mk1s will come in early. And we only have plans for 2 or 3 squadrons making it until 2042, possibly just 1 squadron beyond 2042 instead of 5. Even if Mig-29s are extended, only 1 will make it beyond 2042, so there's still a deficiency of 3 squadrons, although the real number is still 5 squadrons.

 

[randomradio]

For the Greeks, these Mirages were useful because of their ability to fire AM-39s. For India, the P8I Greek Mirage combo could be a formidable weapon against enemy ships, providing highly effective low-altitude strike guidance, otherwise it would be used for spare parts.

If we get them for operational use, we will naturally upgrade them to I/TI standards. But there's talk about selling it to some company that provides training.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

With the addition of 5 Mk1As, the IAF's plan has become unpredictable again. From a simpler 9-10 squadrons each of LCA Mk2 and Rafale alongside 6 LCA Mk1/A squadrons, we now do not know how Mk2 and Rafales numbers will be managed with all that extra space taken up by Mk1A.

If Mk2 and MRFA end up with just 6 squadrons each, then we will have 7 squadrons left for AMCA for a total of 45 squadrons. But AMCA will come in late, so we will need older jets to make up for the deficiency, that's at least 5 squadrons assuming 2 AMCA Mk1s will come in early. And we only have plans for 2 or 3 squadrons making it until 2042, possibly just 1 squadron beyond 2042 instead of 5. Even if Mig-29s are extended, only 1 will make it beyond 2042, so there's still a deficiency of 3 squadrons, although the real number is still 5 squadrons.

And isn't there a risk that production of LCA 1a and 2 will be slower than expected?

 

[randomradio]

And isn't there a risk that production of LCA 1a and 2 will be slower than expected?

As of today 1A production is at 27pa, the third main line was inaugurated early last year. So we are already set on the production front. Depending on export orders, some of the 1A lines will be repurposed for Mk2 or new lines will be set up.

At the very least, 1 to 2 separate Mk2 lines will be set up 'cause the IAF will buy at least 200 of them, 10 squadrons, in a very short time.

Productionwise, we are looking at the delivery of 420 LCAs by 2040-42. The first 83 will be delivered by 2028 followed by the remaining 1As by 2032. Mk2 deliveries could begin anytime between 2030-32 and finish before 2042.

Mk1A development is fine, it was delayed by a year due to negotiations. But Mk2 development has been delayed by 2 years.

The US trying to sanction India was fake news courtesy of Ajai Shukla.

 

[Sathya]

As of today 1A production is at 27pa, the third main line was inaugurated early last year. So we are already set on the production front. Depending on export orders, some of the 1A lines will be repurposed for Mk2 or new lines will be set up.

At the very least, 1 to 2 separate Mk2 lines will be set up 'cause the IAF will buy at least 200 of them, 10 squadrons, in a very short time.

Productionwise, we are looking at the delivery of 420 LCAs by 2040-42. The first 83 will be delivered by 2028 followed by the remaining 1As by 2032. Mk2 deliveries could begin anytime between 2030-32 and finish before 2042.

Mk1A development is fine, it was delayed by a year due to negotiations. But Mk2 development has been delayed by 2 years.

The US trying to sanction India was fake news courtesy of Ajai Shukla.

I think, He is taking about GE F404 engine production limitations to only 20 / year.

--++++++---+---

We ll not upgrade second hand Mirages , last we did it for 50 million $ a pop. Brand new Tejas mk1A with latest gizmos is cheaper than that.

 

[randomradio]

It's interesting. The IAF has been sanctioned 42.5 squadrons. The MKI is expected to have 13.5 squadrons, and it's very likely that the 12 jets we plan on ordering from Russia will form this 0.5th squadron. There's a half squadron of Jaguars equipped with the old EL/M 2032 for sea strike, and could be replaced by a full squadron of Mk2s at a later date.

So of the 42.5 squadrons, we are looking at 13.5 MKIs, 11 Mk1/As, 10 Mk2s, 2 Rafales and 6 MRFA. That comes to 42.5.

The squadron numbers could increase to 45 or 45.5, giving MRFA some more room for expansion, 3 squadrons. Of course, if the IAF decides to get a stopgap next gen jet, this 2-3 squadron hole will be covered, with MRFA ending at 6.

To make space for 7 AMCAs, the first 2 LCA and 3-4 MKI squadrons will have to be decommissioned, followed by an expansion to 46-47 squadrons, plus 0.5.

Alternatively, get to 50 squadrons and get both 3 squadrons each of MRFA as well as a next gen jet.

 

[randomradio]

I think, He is taking about GE F404 engine production limitations to only 20 / year.

--++++++---+---

That's for the earlier 16pa production. GE can naturally increase that once their new line is streamlined. We can just equip the engine on the 1As as they come in. At worst, HAL will have to store about 10 jets for a year.

We ll not upgrade second hand Mirages , last we did it for 50 million $ a pop. Brand new Tejas mk1A with latest gizmos is cheaper than that.

Depends. 1A is not competitive with the M2000, only Mk2 is. The upgrade will happen in parallel, so we will get an extra squadron or two beyond 2042 until AMCA replaces it. So the upgrade doesn't have to be as extensive as before. Anyway let's see what happens.

 

[Ashwin]

And isn't there a risk that production of LCA 1a and 2 will be slower than expected?

The same risk that Dassault had in those 12/year days, albeit with less complex aircraft.

 

[marich01]

There were/are a lot of indigenisation tenders for various mirage parts , and judging by this being the 2021 retired jets, kind of suggests its the spares that is targeted. Not as a flying jet. Lets see what HAL delivery schedule is, good chance they might be trying to make mk1a as close to mk2 as possible.

 

[Sathya]

There were/are a lot of indigenisation tenders for various mirage parts , and judging by this being the 2021 retired jets, kind of suggests its the spares that is targeted. Not as a flying jet. Lets see what HAL delivery schedule is, good chance they might be trying to make mk1a as close to mk2 as possible.

Remembered the tender to make FCS components for Mirages..
Wondered whether we are indigenously upgrading it or something else.

At present nothing is in light to know the usefulness of buying more mirages .

( we already bought retired mirages from France for just 300 cr)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The same risk that Dassault had in those 12/year days, albeit with less complex aircraft.

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. The only known risk to Rafale production was a lack of orders around 2014, which forced France to buy more Rafales than it thought it needed, and which explains why, from the Egyptian order in 2015 and the start of export sales, France refrained from ordering Rafales for many years.

 

[Ashwin]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. The only known risk to Rafale production was a lack of orders around 2014, which forced France to buy more Rafales than it thought it needed, and which explains why, from the Egyptian order in 2015 and the start of export sales, France refrained from ordering Rafales for many years.

Nope, Dassault was unable to scale up and meet demand fast enough when they got orders.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Nope, Dassault was unable to scale up and meet demand fast enough when they got orders.

When?

 

[Ashwin]

When?

2015-16