Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

China yes, Russia no.

That's just facts. Russia has performed worse than even the most negative person on this forum could predict in Ukraine.

Russia is a threat due to nukes and information warfare.

Conventionally, really? The SU-57.

Let's read the most recent tank production thread.
How could a country be putting out the T-55 and you think is a threat to the USAF. Like c'mon. China WS-15 full production. Big threat conventionally in the air, Russia? No way.
China is definitely the numero uno threat. But Russian IADS is even more dense and advance than the Chinese one. NGAD is designed to penetrate the most modern IADS(just like Raptor was), that includes both the Russians and the Chinese.

To defeat both Russia and China, USA needs B-21s and NGAD in numbers, cause F-35 ain't gonna cut it, period.
 
China yes, Russia no.

That's just facts. Russia has performed worse than even the most negative person on this forum could predict in Ukraine.

Russia is a threat due to nukes and information warfare.

Conventionally, really? The SU-57.

Let's read the most recent tank production thread.
How could a country be putting out the T-55 and you think is a threat to the USAF. Like c'mon. China WS-15 full production. Big threat conventionally in the air, Russia? No way.
You will find that he can't be reasoned with. He's pro Russia/france and just hates the F-35. Probably because he is green with envy.
 
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China is definitely the numero uno threat. But Russian IADS is even more dense and advance than the Chinese one. NGAD is designed to penetrate the most modern IADS(just like Raptor was), that includes both the Russians and the Chinese.

To defeat both Russia and China, USA needs B-21s and NGAD in numbers, cause F-35 ain't gonna cut it, period.
F-35 is design to penetrate Russia's IADS.

Might wanna do some reading
 
You will find that he can't be reasoned with. He's pro Russia/france and just hates the F-35. Probably because he is green with envy.

F-35 is design to penetrate Russia's IADS.

Might wanna do some reading
That was in 2014 Sweetie. Now even the current US Think-Tanks know that to defeat Chinese A2/AD 100s of B-21s are needed as Fatty won't cut it:

A prominent airpower think tank says the U.S. Air Force must more than double its planned purchase of a minimum of 100 B-21 bombers if it is to win a war against China. A total of more than 300 bombers would be needed, including 225 of the recently unveiled B-21 plus several dozen B-1s and B-52s, said Mark Gunzinger, a retired Air Force colonel who leads future concepts and capability assessments at the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies, part of the Air & Space Forces Association industry group. As well, planned production of B-21s should be sped up to 20 per year from the planned eight or nine, Gunzinger told reporters on Thursday ahead of the rollout of a new Mitchell Institute report on the topic. More resources can buy back future risk and that's what a more aggressive acquisition rate for the B-21 can do,” Gunzinger said.

The report says the Air Force lacks enough aircraft with the range, payload, and stealth to fight China. It also asserts that declining to double B-21 production will cost more than the planes’ purchase price.

Link: Air Force Should Double Its B-21 Purchase Plans, Think Tank Says

Neither F-22 nor F-35 have the range/endurance to penetrate deep inside China to completely annihilate their A2/AD bubble. Period.


PS: Here is the link(in pdf) of the full report if anyone is interested: https://mitchellaerospacepower.org/...1-Raider-Americas-Deterrence-Bomber-FINAL.pdf
 
That was in 2014 Sweetie. Now even the current US Think-Tanks know that to defeat Chinese A2/AD 100s of B-21s are needed as Fatty won't cut it:





Link: Air Force Should Double Its B-21 Purchase Plans, Think Tank Says

Neither F-22 nor F-35 have the range/endurance to penetrate deep inside China to completely annihilate their A2/AD bubble. Period.


PS: Here is the link(in pdf) of the full report if anyone is interested: https://mitchellaerospacepower.org/...1-Raider-Americas-Deterrence-Bomber-FINAL.pdf


You really are full of yourself. We're talking about a specific platforms capability to penetrate advanced IADS you dope not the opinion of a bloody "think tank" what they think the outcome of a made up war.

:rolleyes:
 
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You really are full of yourself. We're talking about a specific platforms capability to penetrate advanced IADS you dope not the opinion of a bloody "think tank" what they think the outcome of a made up war.

:rolleyes:
Wow, some people are really touchy when it comes to defending F-35:ROFLMAO:

So, you want me to believe Gen. Hostage's viewpoint regarding the F-35 which he gave in 2014, but reject retired USAF veteran Gunzinger's viewpoint which he has given in light of the current circumstances, lol.

Even in the Hostage report, a senior Pentagon officer clearly contradicted him and said that F-35 doesn't replace Growler but complements it.

Facts check Sweetie, this ain't 2014 anymore. The world has moved on. Do you think Chinese A2/AD capabilities as of today are same what it was in 2014? Nope.

Chinese have inducted huge ground based IRST sensors which can detect and track Stealth aircraft from far. Their ground based radars are extremely powerful yet mobile. You need endurance to penetrate and destroy them in Chinese Hinterland, which unfortunately both F-22 and F-35 can't do. You need B-21 and NGAD to defeat China. Period.


I suggest you first read the report posted by me then open your mouth. Arent't you the same guy who was mocking @randomradio when he posted this 2014 Hostage article? And now you're doing the same. Dat hypocrisy, lol.
 
Wow, some people are really touchy when it comes to defending F-35:ROFLMAO:

So, you want me to believe Gen. Hostage's viewpoint regarding the F-35 which he gave in 2014, but reject retired USAF veteran Gunzinger's viewpoint which he has given in light of the current circumstances, lol.

Even in the Hostage report, a senior Pentagon officer clearly contradicted him and said that F-35 doesn't replace Growler but complements it.

Facts check Sweetie, this ain't 2014 anymore. The world has moved on. Do you think Chinese A2/AD capabilities as of today are same what it was in 2014? Nope.

Chinese have inducted huge ground based IRST sensors which can detect and track Stealth aircraft from far. Their ground based radars are extremely powerful yet mobile. You need endurance to penetrate and destroy them in Chinese Hinterland, which unfortunately both F-22 and F-35 can't do. You need B-21 and NGAD to defeat China. Period.


I suggest you first read the report posted by me then open your mouth. Arent't you the same guy who was mocking @randomradio when he posted this 2014 Hostage article? And now you're doing the same. Dat hypocrisy, lol.
:rolleyes:
'If you listen to the Fighter Pilot podcast on EA, episode 83, then you get an idea of some of the limitations of the Growler operating with the SH will have. If you doubt the effectiveness of the F-35 against radars have a read of the following, http://www.scienpress.com/Upload/JCM/Vol 4_1_9.pdf which shows that even with a worst case modelling the F-35 stealth features significantly reduce detection by early warning radars as well as those higher band targeting radars.

As SmithBS indicated both F-35 and SH/Growler would benefit from adversary airfields and VHF radars being targeted by cruise missiles etc. F-35 EA as stated by DigitalSea is going to be very effective given its low RCS and therefore low jamming power required to deceive threats.

Any IADS penetration is all about limiting how far along the kill chain, F2T2EA (which is Find, Fix, Track, Target, Engage, Assess) you get. The F-35 would likely spend a lot more time in the Find and Fix phases while a SH/Growler is going to be detected earlier and therefore spend a lot more time trying to defeat the Track/Target phase of the cycle via EA. The last thing either platform wants is to enter Engage Assess and have to defeat a weapon that is launched against it as in that case you have become defensive and lost the initiative. In the case of the SH it will probably drop its A2G weapons/fuel tanks to defeat the threat, meaning a mission kill for the adversary. Not sure what the tactics for an F-35 would be but I expect with internal weapons they would likely retain them when trying to defeat a threat.'

Growlers once they jam they become a sort of beacon which will notify the enemy "they are here" this is why F-35's will not have Growlers when penetrating advanced IADS. F-35's more than likely will get detected, not tracked, when they are in weapons range and that is when F-35's will turn on their EW and it is game over for the targeted IADS especially when carrying JSOW.
 
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France and Russia also have limitations. ask Argentina about how the French cut them off at the knees, when they upset their UK friend.
You are right.
But it was too difficult to continue to deliver Exocet to a country that deliberately attacked one of our stronger ally.
France will never forget the blood tribute of GB, USA, Canada for its freedom. Sorry, it's just a fact.
f-35I's with meteor
USA is doing all the possible to postpone Meteor integration... until AIM260.
 
To keep it in perspective. It wasn't that france assisted the UK. The issue is that argentina weren't told this when they bought the weapons. That there were strings attached. It was known that they were in conflict. whereas with the US, you know exactly upfront, what the conditions of use are. there are no surprises.

I said
"You already use US equipment with these conditions. Unless you plan on attacking Australia or Japan, it's a non issue.
France and Russia also have limitations. ask Argentina about how the French cut them off at the knees, when they upset their UK friend. An outright betrayal.
Russia's new best friend is China. What can go wrong there for india?"
 
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:rolleyes:
'If you listen to the Fighter Pilot podcast on EA, episode 83, then you get an idea of some of the limitations of the Growler operating with the SH will have. If you doubt the effectiveness of the F-35 against radars have a read of the following, http://www.scienpress.com/Upload/JCM/Vol 4_1_9.pdf which shows that even with a worst case modelling the F-35 stealth features significantly reduce detection by early warning radars as well as those higher band targeting radars.

As SmithBS indicated both F-35 and SH/Growler would benefit from adversary airfields and VHF radars being targeted by cruise missiles etc. F-35 EA as stated by DigitalSea is going to be very effective given its low RCS and therefore low jamming power required to deceive threats.

Any IADS penetration is all about limiting how far along the kill chain, F2T2EA (which is Find, Fix, Track, Target, Engage, Assess) you get. The F-35 would likely spend a lot more time in the Find and Fix phases while a SH/Growler is going to be detected earlier and therefore spend a lot more time trying to defeat the Track/Target phase of the cycle via EA. The last thing either platform wants is to enter Engage Assess and have to defeat a weapon that is launched against it as in that case you have become defensive and lost the initiative. In the case of the SH it will probably drop its A2G weapons/fuel tanks to defeat the threat, meaning a mission kill for the adversary. Not sure what the tactics for an F-35 would be but I expect with internal weapons they would likely retain them when trying to defeat a threat.'

Growlers once they jam they become a sort of beacon which will notify the enemy "they are here" this is why F-35's will not have Growlers when penetrating advanced IADS. F-35's more than likely will get detected, not tracked, when they are in weapons range and that is when F-35's will turn on their EW and it is game over for the targeted IADS especially when carrying JSOW.
I don't care whether Growlers are more effective or F-35s. The fact of the matter is, what I said is backed by an ex USAF officer and Think-Tank that to break Chinese A2/AD in future, America needs over 200 B-21s and NGAD(my opinion) because they have the required endurance to hit deep inside China. F-35 won't suffice in that scenario.

FFS first read the report and then quote my post🤦‍♂️
 
To keep it in perspective. It wasn't that france assisted the UK. The issue is that argentina weren't told this when they bought the weapons. That there were strings attached. It was known that they were in conflict. whereas with the US, you know exactly upfront, what the conditions of use are. there are no surprises.

I said
"You already use US equipment with these conditions. Unless you plan on attacking Australia or Japan, it's a non issue.
France and Russia also have limitations. ask Argentina about how the French cut them off at the knees, when they upset their UK friend. An outright betrayal.
Russia's new best friend is China. What can go wrong there for india?"

In fact a french team working for Dassault was kept in Argentina at the beginning of the war.

"Au début de la guerre, une équipe technique française de AMD-BA se trouve en Argentine où elle travaille à rendre opérationnels les cinq premiers Super-Étendard et les remettre à une seconde équipe de la SNIAS fabricant des missiles Exocet AM39 qui doit effectuer le câblage final. Un embargo est immédiatement décrété par la France et la mission de l'équipe SNIAS est annulée. Toutefois, personne ne pense à prévenir les techniciens de Dassault, qui ne reçoivent aucun ordre de stopper leur travail."

At the beginning of the war, a French technical team from AMD-BA was in Argentina, working to make the first five Super-Etendards operational and hand them over to a second team from SNIAS, manufacturer of Exocet AM39 missiles, which was to carry out the final wiring. An embargo was immediately declared by France and the SNIAS team's mission was cancelled. However, no one thought to warn the Dassault technicians, who received no order to stop their work.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 
To keep it in perspective. It wasn't that france assisted the UK. The issue is that argentina weren't told this when they bought the weapons. That there were strings attached. It was known that they were in conflict. whereas with the US, you know exactly upfront, what the conditions of use are. there are no surprises.


I said
"You already use US equipment with these conditions. Unless you plan on attacking Australia or Japan, it's a non issue.
France and Russia also have limitations. ask Argentina about how the French cut them off at the knees, when they upset their UK friend. An outright betrayal.
Russia's new best friend is China. What can go wrong there for india?"

Pops pops pops , you poor poor perpetually high on Fosters redneck from the back of beyond , boozing & typing . Must never do it like you don't drink & drive .

You've been on an Indian forum for more than a year & you still don't know who's our most implacable foe , our existential threat . You know why ? Coz you don't venture beyond a handful of threads namely this one , the one on MRCBF , the ones on Rafales & a couple of one's on our N submarines besides the Quad & AUKUS threads .

Yet you comment with a great deal of authority here on matters you lack the depth to understand. Homework for you . Try & find out who's India's nemesis & if you do find out , try & gauge how do the 5i's see that nation. Perhaps you'd comment with more responsibility & caution then onwards.
 
Pakistan is becoming just another chinese puppet. the real threat is China.
 
Pakistan is becoming just another chinese puppet. the real threat is China.
Pakistan is THE existential threat not China . China's merely capitalising on the situation. Now check on how the 5i's perceive Pakistan . UK's actually pushing Pakistan's case in Washington trying to rehabilitate it .

Those F-35s which the US would love us using on the Chinese would suddenly become anathema when we deploy them against Pakistan.
 
To keep it in perspective. It wasn't that france assisted the UK. The issue is that argentina weren't told this when they bought the weapons. That there were strings attached. It was known that they were in conflict. whereas with the US, you know exactly upfront, what the conditions of use are. there are no surprises.
No. There were no strings.
Once the Falklands war declared, France halted the delivery of Exocet (only 7 or 8 delivered so far if I remember well) and we gave to GB some information about the radar mods to help them in electronic counter measures.
 
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You are right.
But it was too difficult to continue to deliver Exocet to a country that deliberately attacked one of our stronger ally.
France will never forget the blood tribute of GB, USA, Canada for its freedom. Sorry, it's just a fact.

USA is doing all the possible to postpone Meteor integration... until AIM260.
Don't European f-35's have meteors already. I thought the Italians were already using the meteor on f-35