Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

WHOHE

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Jun 23, 2021
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Must have been because of the meteor and GaN aesa
No. Politics. Boeing deserves it too. They should have put some thought pissing off the Canadian Government knowing they wanted to sell their plane to them.

"Billie Flynn says it's because Quebec will never forget .. or forgive .. what Boeing did to Bombardier on the C-series - almost bankrupting that company and forcing the sale of what by all accounts is a really good and very fuel efficient small passenger jet to Airbus for $1."

" Classic Hornets are fulfilling Canada's needs for a fighter (vigorously defended by the Government) with recent additional 2nd-hand airframes, however the Super Hornet, its more advanced successor, could not. Appears therefore to be a political and price-point decision."

Unfortunately for Canada Boeing will retaliate and likely reassess their "footprint" in Canada.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Unfortunately for Canada Boeing will retaliate and likely reassess their "footprint" in Canada.
I suppose you & Boeing think the Canadians are a bunch of spineless village idiots ( though I don't blame them or anybody else for thinking that of Canadians for they often come across as such) . If Boeing is too smart by half they stand to lose the market forever to Airbus. As far as the servicing the requirements of the remaining F-18s in Canada's inventory goes, if they pull a fast one there, say good bye to NORAD. Boeing is in no position to do scat. They're better off licking their wounds.
 

WHOHE

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Jun 23, 2021
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I suppose you & Boeing think the Canadians are a bunch of spineless village idiots ( though I don't blame them or anybody else for thinking that of Canadians for they often come across as such) .


Lol. What? Where the hell did you get that impression? Can you now read peoples minds or just making crap up again?

If Boeing is too smart by half they stand to lose the market forever to Airbus.

Proof?
As far as the servicing the requirements of the remaining F-18s in Canada's inventory goes, if they pull a fast one there, say good bye to NORAD. Boeing is in no position to do scat. They're better off licking their wounds.

Really? So not only can you read minds/full of crap now you know what Canada would do when it comes to NORAD. It's amazing what an Indian living halfway around the world knows about the mindset of a first world nation.
 

_Anonymous_

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Lol. What? Where the hell did you get that impression? Can you now read peoples minds or just making crap up again?
It's not me . It's pretty much what the US especially all US administrations think of Canada & Canadians. Of course the trailer park you live in wouldn't be aware of such nuances.
Proof is in your statement which I've quoted. Scroll up .
Really? So not only can you read minds/full of crap now you know what Canada would do when it comes to NORAD.
If the cutting edge of their AF is compromised how exactly do you think Canada would respond ?

It's amazing what an Indian living halfway around the world knows about the mindset of a first world nation.
Oh , you'd be surprised at what Indians are capable of . After all 1/3rd of the start ups in silicon valley have been created by Indians. Can you imagine Americans replicating it in any developed country around the globe. Step outside your trailer park & explore California to begin with followed by the US & then the world instead of gluing your backside to a chair & your eyes to a monitor cheering for the JSF at the drop of a hat constantly. Get a life !

P.S : How old are you ? 20 going on 16 ?
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Lol. What? Where the hell did you get that impression? Can you now read peoples minds or just making crap up again?



Proof?


Really? So not only can you read minds/full of crap now you know what Canada would do when it comes to NORAD. It's amazing what an Indian living halfway around the world knows about the mindset of a first world nation.
He's right. Boeing can just cope now, they can protest at best but if they try to threaten them or something on those lines nothing's going to happen and they will lose the Canadian government completely.
 

WHOHE

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Jun 23, 2021
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It's not me . It's pretty much what the US especially all US administrations think of Canada & Canadians. Of course the trailer park you live in wouldn't be aware of such nuances.

Oh so you do read minds?

Your Indian and you're making fun of US trailer parks? You? :unsure:
Proof is in your statement which I've quoted. Scroll up .

If the cutting edge of their AF is compromised how exactly do you think Canada would respond ?

Boeing isn't only just F-18s. :rolleyes:
Oh , you'd be surprised at what Indians are capable of . After all 1/3rd of the start ups in silicon valley have been created by Indians. Can you imagine Americans replicating it in any developed country around the globe.

You say 1/3rd are Indians yet India is such a.... well third world. DOES NOT COMPUTE!
Step outside your trailer park & explore California to begin with followed by the US & then the world instead of gluing your backside to a chair & your eyes to a monitor cheering for the JSF at the drop of a hat constantly. Get a life !

I live in a house in San Diego shall we take pics of our residence and compare?


P.S : How old are you ? 20 going on 16 ?
 
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WHOHE

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Jun 23, 2021
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He's right. Boeing can just cope now, they can protest at best but if they try to threaten them or something on those lines nothing's going to happen and they will lose the Canadian government completely.
Boeing doesn't completely have to pullout. Boeing like the Canadian government can make an excuse too why they are pulling put many, not all, of their plants.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Oh so you do read minds?

Your Indian and you're making fun of US trailer parks? You? 
Reflected most aptly in L'affaire Huawei where Canada got inviegled in international intrigue at the behest of the US. That's French , trailer park boy. Check it out.
Boeing isn't only just F-18s. 
Did I say that or did you with your limited intellect comprehend that?
You say 1/3rd are Indians yet India is such a.... well third world. DOES NOT COMPUTE!
Yeah, beats me too. I mean here's the US the sole hyperpower in the world. Yet it's citizens for all their privilege don't have it in themselves to set up a start up in say France.

Why do you suppose that's the case? Conversely how's it Indians own anywhere between 25% - 33% of the start ups in silicon Valley for a 3rd world country. Are you saying Americans are so easy to gyp? Does that explain Trump?
I live in a house in San Diego shall we take pics of our residence and compare?
Sure. Make sure you're standing in front of the trailer just so we know it's yours.

PS : How old did you say you were again?
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Boeing doesn't completely have to pullout. Boeing like the Canadian government can make an excuse too why they are pulling put many, not all, of their plants.
Given the financial state of Boeing they don't even need make any excuses. The Canadians would understand. Probably they'd assist Boeing in getting a suitable partner for these plants. Think Airbus.
 

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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F-5s, T-38s and F-16 aggressors shoot down F-22s and F-15s in dogfights so according to your delusional brain those fighters are better than F-22 and F-15?

You do know in real combat your french plane would be dead long before it ever knows there's an F-22 and F-35? The french planes equal is the F-18E.
I have seen some foreign airforce pilots opinion and tution teacher of mine currently IAF maintainence crew (back in the childhood) that Russian jets are hell to maintain, French & British jets are like buttery for them to maintain compared to Russian equipment, however western world jets especially those coming from US primarily are in different league due to economy of scale and the level of technology. Similar experience in army unit (special operators) as well from someone very close to me. Person has stayed up the hilly AOA mostly for all of his close to 10 years in service till now.
 
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RISING SUN

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If AIM260 is so impressive, why integrating Meteor on F35 ?
I guess two logic. One Europeans might find it more ease of maintenance and cost with missile production and maintenance both within European borders. Second US might not be willing to share its top capability missile immediately once it enters the production. They might wanna do it after inducting sufficient numbers in their own force.
My personal opinion.
 

RISING SUN

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They are persisting with Link 16 just for interoperability purposes and as a backup mode I believe. Otherwise L16 can’t handle the data traffic required for F35 formations during combat scenarios.
I do believe link 16 despite being crucial technology to share military information securely is getting outdated now and US might be already working on its successor, however they would like to test its wrinkles before sharing with others. Link 16 alone has manged to change the tide of battle in ECM environment.
 
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Herciv

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Nov 30, 2017
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I do believe link 16 despite being crucial technology to share military information securely is getting outdated now and US might be already working on its successor, however they would like to test its wrinkles before sharing with others. Link 16 alone has manged to change the tide of battle in ECM environment.
Outdated probably not. But it needs to be completed.
Madl is a solution but there are other much more efficient :
 

Spitfire6

Member
Oct 31, 2021
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138 still there? humm humm....
The final figure will be far less. 60 to 80 seems more reasonable.

I said the same thing about Rafale in India

Wow, dude, it's clear you haven't understood a single thing I said.

Its clear you choose to ignore basic facts. you keep up bringing up anything but the subject, bringing up Rafale in India because you can't actually find a direct source that discounts what I say. Its very simple. we have actual Boeing numbers in Canada. The contract was so prohibitively costly even the Liberal Government which vowed to never buy F-35 rejected the Boeing contract. There are also other factors to consider like the Boeing contract would be subject to FMS fees which would add cost, but purchasing the F-35 as a partner nation would add none. This is another reason why its ridiculous to try and apply India to Canada using two different aircraft. since I assume you won't simply let this go I stand by the for the next exciting round. This is a complex thing, and you keep making surface level analysis that doesn't apply or is simply outright wrong.


Long story short, if the Canadian assessment ends up being fair, and they do not consider capability, the SH will win, quite easily.
SH seems to have been kicked out of Canada's tender due to technical reasons.

HAHAHAHAHAHA
Must have been because of the meteor and GaN aesa

its 100 percent political and absolutely embarrassing for Boeing if this leak turns out to be true. Gripen E is not even in service last i checked, I think they've moved into "serial delivery phase" as of 3 whole days ago. Unless something goes completely insane, the F-35 has won and its going to be a bloodbath. Gripen E is absolutely the weakest of all the potential candidates by far. its the least produced, least mature, least developed option. When the Canadian criteria of "Seamless interoperability with key allies" comes into play it becomes even more obvious. They could not pick a weaker competitor than Gripen for the final round.
 

Spitfire6

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Oct 31, 2021
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With 20% less flight hours, it's easy to manipulate sustainment costs.
In addition, the F-35A still requires 20 percent fewer flight hours (5000 per year for the fleet) than with the Eurofighter, F / A-18E / F or Rafale. And even with the same number of flight hours, the F-35 would be cheaper, it was said at the press conference on Friday morning.

Thanks, Herciv! perfect link bud!
 

Spitfire6

Member
Oct 31, 2021
86
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Boeing think the Canadians are a bunch of spineless village idiots

I can certainly vouch for that, and its something I keep trying to emphasize to randomradio. this is why its so insulting to have him carry on. We were told the same lie for 5 years. When we finally said "ok lets try that" the price increased massively. He is now convinced that repeating that lie again after it was proven so obviously fraudulent will somehow make it true, despite what Boeing actually showed us, despite the Canadian Government finding that number to be woefully untrue already. He insists we are wrong, and its our own lying eyes, or perhaps our memory is flawed and has the audacity to say "Between 60-70 million" for the SH, yes between 60 and 70? you mean the mythical "65 million" that no export customer has ever actually received? Randomrodeo will carry Boeing's water until his knees collapse, which will put him in a perfectly appropriate subservient kneeling position
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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I said the same thing about Rafale in India



Its clear you choose to ignore basic facts. you keep up bringing up anything but the subject, bringing up Rafale in India because you can't actually find a direct source that discounts what I say. Its very simple. we have actual Boeing numbers in Canada. The contract was so prohibitively costly even the Liberal Government which vowed to never buy F-35 rejected the Boeing contract. There are also other factors to consider like the Boeing contract would be subject to FMS fees which would add cost, but purchasing the F-35 as a partner nation would add none. This is another reason why its ridiculous to try and apply India to Canada using two different aircraft. since I assume you won't simply let this go I stand by the for the next exciting round. This is a complex thing, and you keep making surface level analysis that doesn't apply or is simply outright wrong.

That's how it works though, the real world.

The anticipated financial cost will be less: calculations currently indicate that a guarantee credit of CHF 6.035 billion will be required for the 36 F-35A fighter aircraft. This covers the following items:
• CHF 3.828 billion for the 36 F-35A aircraft (110 millions US dollars/f-35)
• CHF 1.927 billion for the logistics package, including ground material, replacement material, documentation, training, and technical support from the manufacturer during the rollout
• CHF 107 million for ammunition
• CHF 86 million for training, mission planning and evaluation systems
• CHF 82 million to cover potential technical risks: the F-35As are being purchased with the same configuration as used by other countries, and the manufacturer will produce the aircraft applying the same standards and procedures as used for over 3,000 aircraft. This means that the risk premium is expected to be low in comparison with other procurement projects.
• CHF 5 million for the assumed inflation level. A low figure can also be used for inflation, as inflation only affects that part of the transaction involving direct orders in Switzerland, i.e. to RUAG.


3.828B + 1.927B + 86M + 82M + 5M = 5.928B CHF... without weapons and R&D
4.029B + 2.028B + 90M + 86M + 5M = 6.238B USD

Indian Rafale deal... same stuff
3.42B + 0.9B + 0.35B = €4.67B
3.87B + 1.02B + 0.4B = $5.29B

I'm pretty sure $6.3B is more than $5.3B. Dunno if Canada plays by the same rules.

Apparently it took only 3 years to add a billion bucks to procurement. This kinda inflation doesn't happen anywhere else. Would that mean another billion bucks will be added to the bill by the time the first jet delivers? And another billion by the time all jets are delivered? Pretty clever way to hide costs through inflation. Just add 20% to the cost very 3 years. So 1 CHF + 1.2 CHF in just 6 years. A cool $7.6B when the first jet is delivered.

Dunno what you find so funny about the SH getting kicked out. I had already pointed out long ago that the Teens are useless. Plus this is a tactic used to kick out cheaper competitors. India does the same through tech evals. That's how Gripen, F-16, SH and Mig-35 were kicked out a decade ago too. Not many Western countries do this though.

its 100 percent political and absolutely embarrassing for Boeing if this leak turns out to be true.

Why is an older jet being less advanced than a recently designed jet embarrassing? What happened was pretty obvious as far as process was concerned. The SH doesn't match up to the Gripen for obvious reasons. The same story's gonna repeat with all older jets, including Flankers, Fulcrums, Falcons, Eagles etc. Very big RCS, old airframes, old avionics etc.
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Nice try. your link here says.
-Unit cost (36 F3+* RafalesX$105m*) $3.8b
-IAF specific enhancements ** ( including improved hot an high performance, integration of Israeli systems and weapons) $2b
$5.8 B, You also need the Logistics package and training.

With the F-35. You are using the $6.2 B number with inflation 2030+. Rafale was 2017 and delivered 2021. You should use the F-35 about $3.5 to 4,2B. Which was a now price. I haven't worked out the exact, I'll leave that to you.
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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With the F-35. You are using the $6.2 B number with inflation 2030+. Rafale was 2017 and delivered 2021. You should use the F-35 about $3.5 to 4,2B. Which was a now price. I haven't worked out the exact, I'll leave that to you.

The F-35's current Swiss rate is for inflation between 2018 and 2021, not 2030. The 5B CHF for procurement was the price in 2018, and that's climbed to 6B in 2021. So that's a 20% growth in inflation in just 3 years.

In the Indian deal, the inflation is 3.5% per year or current exchange rate, whichever's lower. It's less than half of the Swiss inflation even at its maximum. And the exchange rate between Euro and INR was quite stable between 2016 and 2019, so well below 3.5%.

The Rafale price I calculated is accurate. It includes the jets, base infrastructure and spares. Weapons, R&D and the cost of an extra base were removed since the Swiss deal also does not have these extras. I didn't calculate the piddly Swiss weapons component either. Anyway the Rafale with customisation costs $110M, the same as the Swiss cost of the stock F-35. The SH is way cheaper than either jet.
 
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Optimist

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Australia
The F-35 planes are priced for 2030. The price without inflation was $1b less. Remember the frog saying they went up $1b?
The rafale was flyaway $105. the modification was $55. Please don't BS
 
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