Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Still doesn't matter. If it's 24 SH, then it came in for $4.3B, or was it $4.6B at the time. Whatever the case, much cheaper than what the DSCA has estimated. Plus the support package is for 10 years.
You aren't having much luck. The education system isn't this bad is India. Are you intellectually challenged? I'll type slowly for you.

$6b... for 24 super hornets.
 
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Herciv

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Nov 30, 2017
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110 milliondollar /F-35 is the official price communicated by armasuisse.
Bern, 26.11.2021 - armasuisse has agreed contract terms with the US government for the purchase of the F-35A fighter aircraft and the Patriot longer-range ground-based air defence system. Assuming an exchange rate of CHF 0.95 to the US dollar, this results in guarantee credits of CHF 6.035 billion for the aircraft and CHF 1.987 billion for the air defence system. This is less than the anticipated financial cost. The planning decision on procuring the fighter aircraft, which has been approved by Swiss voters, allows for a financial cost of CHF 6.3 billion, taking into account inflation forecasts up to 2031 and anticipated payments.

On 30 June 2021, the Federal Council decided to purchase 36 F-35A fighter aircraft from Lockheed-Martin and five Patriot fire units from Raytheon. It will request Parliament to approve the guarantee credits in the 2022 Armed Forces Dispatch. Since this decision was taken, the procurement contracts with the US government have been finalised. Known as letters of offer and acceptance (LOAs), these are initially signed by one party, i.e. by the USA. As soon as Switzerland also signs the LOAs, they come into effect.

Payment schedules as a basis for drawing up the guarantee credits As soon as the LOAs are signed, the payment schedules also become available. In addition, the DDPS and the Federal Finance Administration (FFA) have updated the inflation forecasts. This has made it possible to calculate the guarantee credits.

The prices offered are in US dollars until delivery. An exchange rate of CHF 0.95 to the US dollar was assumed for calculating the guarantee credits. This assumption has remained unchanged since the June 2021 evaluation report. The rate has been calculated conservatively as things currently stand. Depending on how the rate develops, the Federal Council may apply a different rate in the Armed Forces Dispatch. The Federal Council usually hedges the exchange rate after the parliamentary decision has been taken, thus limiting the currency risk.

F-35A: Potential financial cost undercut
On 27 September 2020, Swiss voters approved a budget of CHF 6 billion for the fighter aircraft in the planning decision. This amount is based on the national consumer price index from January 2018. Based on current forecasts for inflation up to 2031 and the payments envisaged, the maximum financial cost is CHF 6.3 billion.

The anticipated financial cost will be less: calculations currently indicate that a guarantee credit of CHF 6.035 billion will be required for the 36 F-35A fighter aircraft. This covers the following items:
• CHF 3.828 billion for the 36 F-35A aircraft (110 millions US dollars/f-35)
• CHF 1.927 billion for the logistics package, including ground material, replacement material, documentation, training, and technical support from the manufacturer during the rollout
• CHF 107 million for ammunition
• CHF 86 million for training, mission planning and evaluation systems
• CHF 82 million to cover potential technical risks: the F-35As are being purchased with the same configuration as used by other countries, and the manufacturer will produce the aircraft applying the same standards and procedures as used for over 3,000 aircraft. This means that the risk premium is expected to be low in comparison with other procurement projects.
• CHF 5 million for the assumed inflation level. A low figure can also be used for inflation, as inflation only affects that part of the transaction involving direct orders in Switzerland, i.e. to RUAG.

Patriot: Guarantee credit of CHF 1.987 billion
The US government has also submitted the contracts for the Patriot longer-range ground-based air defence system. They are subject to the same conditions as those for the F-35A. The Patriot procurement is currently expected to cost CHF 1.987 billion.

An exchange rate of CHF 0.95 to the US dollar has again been assumed. The risks are comparable to those of the aircraft procurement.

Offset transactions: CHF 4.2 billion to return to Switzerland
The two procurements result in offset transactions worth CHF 4.2 billion.

The aircraft manufacturer has agreed offset transactions worth CHF 2.9 billion, around CHF 1 billion of which will be direct offsets, i.e. orders placed by the foreign manufacturer with Swiss companies in connection with the aircraft procurement. In addition, the manufacturer of the ground-based air defence system has agreed to CHF 1.3 billion in offsets, including CHF 260 million in direct offsets. The offset commitments must be met no later than four years after delivery. No offsets arise in relation to value-added tax, the risk surcharge or direct federal government contracts with Swiss companies.
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Make up your mind, it was $190m a few posts ago. They buy at the then year flyaway price, as it rolls off the production line. There are fees and charges added. I don't know what would be included for $110m, landed in Finland. No doubt more info will be released.
 
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Herciv

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Nov 30, 2017
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Make up your mind, it was $190m a few posts ago. They buy at the then year flyaway price, as it rolls off the production line. There are fees and charges added. I don't know what would be included for $110m, landed in Finland. No doubt more info will be released.
As you have said yourself few post ago it was only for the LRIP6.
$110m/f-35 is what armasuisse give. You don't agree with armasuisse ?

It seems that for Finland only one sidewinder / f-35 will be sufficient to make war againt Russia ...:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
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Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Where is the US subsidising the price that you carry on about? It was the only way they would win.
As i said, what year are they coming off the production line and you can look up the flyaway price. add the fees and charges. What else is included in the $110. Is the $110 turn key, landed in Switzerland? There are unknows at this stage.

Gee, the extras they bought all fitted into the budget. who would have guessed that?

So have you bought some new handkerchiefs, to dry your eyes after you lose in Finland next month :)
 

Herciv

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Nov 30, 2017
348
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Price in Switzerland have taken a little hit : 1 billion CHF more than announced :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

F-35A Price Update After the U.S. government signed the procurement contract, the Swiss Ministry of Defense today announced updated price calculations for the purchase of 36 Lockheed-Martin F-35As. Karl Schwarz 11/26/2021 The Swiss government can only sign the "letters of offer and acceptance" (LOA) once the deal is processed in parliament and likely after a referendum. It is expected that the acquisition of the F-35 and the Patriot anti-flight system will be addressed in the 2022 Armed Forces Message. Since the Federal Council (government) decision of June 30, 2021, armasuisse has "cleaned up" the contracts with the US government. Assuming an exchange rate of CHF 0.95 to the US dollar, this translates into commitment credits of CHF 6.035 billion for combat aircraft and CHF 1.987 billion for ground-based air defense. In June, the F-35A was still talking about CHF 5.068 billion, but by the time final bids were submitted in February 2021. At Patriot, the DDPS (Ministry of Defense) had already raised the "procurement costs including VAT. at the time of payment" communicated with 1.970 billion francs. Even with the figures now presented, according to the DDPS, the limit is still well within the limits, because with the current inflation forecast until 2031, the limit would not be 6 billion francs but 6.314 billion francs. The financial volume of 6 billion francs approved by the voters on September 27, 2020 with the programming resolution was based on the national consumer price index of January 2018. 6.035 billion francs for aircraft, weapons, logistics and training For the sum of 6.035 billion Swiss francs, Switzerland pays:

3.828 billion Swiss francs for the 36 F-35As
1.927 billion Swiss francs for the logistics package with ground equipment, replacement equipment, documentation, training and technical assistance for the manufacturer during the introduction
107 million Swiss francs for the ammunition. This includes an apparently very small number of air-to-air guided missiles with infrared seeker heads (the existing AMRAAMs with radar will continue to be used) and "a small number of precision munitions for certification and training in the air-to-ground role.
86 million Swiss francs for training systems (including four networked simulators in Payerne) and for mission planning and evaluation
82 million Swiss francs for technical risks: the F-35A is purchased in the same configuration as it is used in other countries, and the manufacturer uses the same standards and processes as those used to produce more than 3,000 aircraft. "This means that a low risk surcharge can be expected compared to other procurement projects," according to the DDPS. 5 million francs for assumed inflation. "A lower figure can also be used for inflation, since it is only the proportion of direct orders in Switzerland, i.e. to RUAG," it says.

Prices are in U.S. dollars until delivery, with the aircraft now expected to arrive between mid-2027 and 2031. In June, 2025 was mentioned, but the delay of a referendum until the contract is signed was probably not taken into account. An exchange rate of 0.95 francs to the U.S. dollar was used to calculate the commitment credits. This assumption has remained unchanged since the June 2021 evaluation report. Depending on developments, the Federal Council may adopt a different course for the Armed Forces Message 2022. The Federal Council usually covers the exchange rate after parliament has passed a resolution. Only then can the fiscal administration buy foreign currency in advance and limit the exchange rate risk.

The total cost of the new fighter jet is expected to remain at 15.5 billion francs. As before, the U.S. government guarantees the cost of flight hours for the first 10 years. You will have to pay additional costs, which is not expected, since the hourly flight costs of the F-35 will tend to decrease, so armasuisse. From about 2040, the company's own forecasts were used. armasuisse also stated that the new figures will not change the large gap between the F-35 and the competition. The cost/benefit evaluation has always been calculated taking inflation into account. In addition, the F-35A still requires 20% fewer flight hours (5,000 per year for the fleet) than the Eurofighter, F/A-18E/F or Rafale. And even with the same number of flight hours, the F-35 would be cheaper, according to the Friday morning press conference.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 

Herciv

Well-Known member
Nov 30, 2017
348
327
FRANCE
Where is the US subsidising the price that you carry on about? It was the only way they would win.
As i said, what year are they coming off the production line and you can look up the flyaway price. add the fees and charges. What else is included in the $110. Is the $110 turn key, landed in Switzerland? There are unknows at this stage.

Gee, the extras they bought all fitted into the budget. who would have guessed that?

So have you bought some new handkerchiefs, to dry your eyes after you lose in Finland next month :)
Yes. I'm prepare to the fact that Rafale could loose but are you prepare that F-35 could also loose in Finland ?
The little recalculation of 1 billion CHF are in Finland press :
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
606
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As I said, it is the same price you posted before. You should read past the headline. It will tell you, but I think your disfunction, impedes this cognitive ability.

English is your 2nd. it is a common spelling error, with different meanings Loose, lose.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,979
11,621
India
You aren't having much luck. The education system isn't this bad is India. Are you intellectually challenged? I'll type slowly for you.

$6b... for 24 super hornets.

Typical. :rolleyes:

Ever considered Australia has its own currency?

Australia will buy 24 F-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, made by Boeing Co. BA.N, and related equipment in a deal worth up to A$6 billion ($4.6 billion), the government said on Tuesday.

Australia has given the green light to an estimated A$6 billion ($4.64 billion) acquisition of 24 Boeing F/A-18F Block II Super Hornet aircraft

So, what was that about the education system?
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
15,979
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India
Price in Switzerland have taken a little hit : 1 billion CHF more than announced :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

F-35A Price Update After the U.S. government signed the procurement contract, the Swiss Ministry of Defense today announced updated price calculations for the purchase of 36 Lockheed-Martin F-35As. Karl Schwarz 11/26/2021 The Swiss government can only sign the "letters of offer and acceptance" (LOA) once the deal is processed in parliament and likely after a referendum. It is expected that the acquisition of the F-35 and the Patriot anti-flight system will be addressed in the 2022 Armed Forces Message. Since the Federal Council (government) decision of June 30, 2021, armasuisse has "cleaned up" the contracts with the US government. Assuming an exchange rate of CHF 0.95 to the US dollar, this translates into commitment credits of CHF 6.035 billion for combat aircraft and CHF 1.987 billion for ground-based air defense. In June, the F-35A was still talking about CHF 5.068 billion, but by the time final bids were submitted in February 2021. At Patriot, the DDPS (Ministry of Defense) had already raised the "procurement costs including VAT. at the time of payment" communicated with 1.970 billion francs. Even with the figures now presented, according to the DDPS, the limit is still well within the limits, because with the current inflation forecast until 2031, the limit would not be 6 billion francs but 6.314 billion francs. The financial volume of 6 billion francs approved by the voters on September 27, 2020 with the programming resolution was based on the national consumer price index of January 2018. 6.035 billion francs for aircraft, weapons, logistics and training For the sum of 6.035 billion Swiss francs, Switzerland pays:

3.828 billion Swiss francs for the 36 F-35As
1.927 billion Swiss francs for the logistics package with ground equipment, replacement equipment, documentation, training and technical assistance for the manufacturer during the introduction
107 million Swiss francs for the ammunition. This includes an apparently very small number of air-to-air guided missiles with infrared seeker heads (the existing AMRAAMs with radar will continue to be used) and "a small number of precision munitions for certification and training in the air-to-ground role.
86 million Swiss francs for training systems (including four networked simulators in Payerne) and for mission planning and evaluation
82 million Swiss francs for technical risks: the F-35A is purchased in the same configuration as it is used in other countries, and the manufacturer uses the same standards and processes as those used to produce more than 3,000 aircraft. "This means that a low risk surcharge can be expected compared to other procurement projects," according to the DDPS. 5 million francs for assumed inflation. "A lower figure can also be used for inflation, since it is only the proportion of direct orders in Switzerland, i.e. to RUAG," it says.

Prices are in U.S. dollars until delivery, with the aircraft now expected to arrive between mid-2027 and 2031. In June, 2025 was mentioned, but the delay of a referendum until the contract is signed was probably not taken into account. An exchange rate of 0.95 francs to the U.S. dollar was used to calculate the commitment credits. This assumption has remained unchanged since the June 2021 evaluation report. Depending on developments, the Federal Council may adopt a different course for the Armed Forces Message 2022. The Federal Council usually covers the exchange rate after parliament has passed a resolution. Only then can the fiscal administration buy foreign currency in advance and limit the exchange rate risk.

The total cost of the new fighter jet is expected to remain at 15.5 billion francs. As before, the U.S. government guarantees the cost of flight hours for the first 10 years. You will have to pay additional costs, which is not expected, since the hourly flight costs of the F-35 will tend to decrease, so armasuisse. From about 2040, the company's own forecasts were used. armasuisse also stated that the new figures will not change the large gap between the F-35 and the competition. The cost/benefit evaluation has always been calculated taking inflation into account. In addition, the F-35A still requires 20% fewer flight hours (5,000 per year for the fleet) than the Eurofighter, F/A-18E/F or Rafale. And even with the same number of flight hours, the F-35 would be cheaper, according to the Friday morning press conference.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

So the overall deal climbed by $1B for procurement. Of course it did.
 

zinswinsin

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randomradio

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Oh please. Canada and Boeing? The Boeing that tried and basically succeeded in killing Bombardier? lol

Politics can be very strong in this tender. But at the same time, it's not surprising since India made the same technical decision 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be any different 10 years later.
 

randomradio

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Must have been because of the meteor and GaN aesa

Everything on the Gripen is better than the SH, weapons, avionics, even the engine. The F414 on the SH has only half the hot section life compared to the one on the Gripen for example. The only advantage the SH has is the two engines gives it greater reliability over ice and water, and twice the electrical power.

If the competition really comes down to cost between the F-35 and Gripen, the govt won't be able to justify the induction of the F-35. But I'll definitely be surprised if they choose the Gripen over the F-35. Dassault and Airbus will end up deeply regretting not joining in.
 
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Lolwa

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Everything on the Gripen is better than the SH, weapons, avionics, even the engine. The F414 on the SH has only half the hot section life compared to the one on the Gripen for example. The only advantage the SH has is the two engines gives it greater reliability over ice and water, and twice the electrical power.

If the competition really comes down to cost between the F-35 and Gripen, the govt won't be able to justify the induction of the F-35. But I'll definitely be surprised if they choose the Gripen over the F-35. Dassault and Airbus will end up deeply regretting not joining in.
I think they will end up going with the f-35. Cost difference isn't that much and the capability jump is pretty decent compared to the gripen E. But this could go similar to indian tenders.
 

randomradio

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I think they will end up going with the f-35. Cost difference isn't that much and the capability jump is pretty decent compared to the gripen E. But this could go similar to indian tenders.

Logically, procurement cost should favour the F-35. But sustainment cost should definitely favour the Gripen.

Looking at the cost difference between Swiss and Brazilian deals, $6.3B vs $5.4B, for 36 jets each, cost should favour Gripen E overall. I mean, the Brazilian cost includes the jet and all associated costs, including customisation, R&D of a two-seat version and comes with a final assembly line. The IAF had also claimed the cost of Gripen E is 30% that of the Rafale.

In terms of capability, I'd pick the F-35 over the Gripen. LM has the money to bring in capability upgrades faster than Saab can. There should be significant differences in training. But interoperability is the main difference. Interoperability between American jets is different from interoperability between American and other NATO jets. Canada requires the former. So I'll be really surprised if Canada chooses a non-American jet. This was always a competition between the F-35 and SH, and the SH has been kicked out.