Is history actually written by victors ?

With a hindsight, at present not obfuscated by an underlying desire to find some ray of hope, I agree.

A bloody sad and useless waste of time.

@Levina

I did my best to contribute to goad a meaningful discourse instead of what clearly is turning into a rather nasty deluge of intellectual intercourse, but remain overwhelmed by the inability demonstrated and inherent, to rise above.

It is on this note, that I withdraw from here. A farewell it is.

Happy Landings!!

Don't you DARE walk out on us. Come right back, please.
 
We must distinguish between Astronomy, the actual observation of the heavenly bodies, and Astrology, applying that information to interpret human affairs and terrestrial behaviour. The one is science, advanced science; the other is charlatanry. There is no question of 'un-knowledgeable', wherever that grammatical abomination has been dragged out from; the right to outright discard this pseudo-science, meant for the delectation of females of intermediate age who have excessive time on their hands, and idiots who determine their children's compatibility with other children in marriage using this codswallop.

Having the liberty to post in these columns does not carry the license to inflict mindless superstition on others.

I admit your proficiency in English, I would say it is the best, far ahead, among all on this forum. But that does little to support your argument.

Astrology is a science of karma and how it is carried forward from several lives, same as how opening balances are c/f to a new year's account books. Just because you have only heard, seen and understood rocks of coal all around - "mindless superstition", does not mean that diamonds do not exist. It is simply to make a fast buck that people jump into it to claim its knowledge as such, for the reason that there is misery everywhere. Such practitioners themselves are going down the whirlpool of bad Karma by them misleading other people. Bottom line, it is simple case of demand and supply, where quality gets compromised. Brilliant astrologers are rare in today's world. Their existence is in single digits. Next group are advanced learners, and then the rest.

Just because Astronomy is promoted by billions of dollars by scientists all around the world, sheep believe in it by simply knowing some basic fundamentals. And a life science which leads humans from bondage to liberation is demeaned as superstition. This is the effect of kali yuga where the demon Kali delights to keep its subjects in "Agyan" of what matters.

If you do not understand Karma, rebirth, Kali yuga - then you are on the right path of understanding of astrology - "mindless superstition"
 
Last edited:
And that is in sharp contradiction of the historical facts on record. History is not concerned with perception, history is concerned with the best available interpretation of the best available information. Please do not degrade this discipline to another majoritarian pursuit of self-gratification in the teeth of the facts.
My dear I never tried to degrade anything.. I have an opinion and I have a right to say it.. Right?

If history has been about best possible interpretation of best available information... The aryan theory had never come into practice..

Nor chandragupta maurya has been considered low caste born... Nor the prithiviraj would have defeated gauri for 17 times.
 
Obviously you are a religious person who believes that Mahabharata as written is for real, while I am a rationalist who wants to know what really happened. There can be no agreement between us . We will have to agree to disagree.
Believe me doc... Whatever had happened... The things those historians had said was not happened for real.
 
My dear I never tried to degrade anything.. I have an opinion and I have a right to say it.. Right?

Of course you have, Sir, but NOT as history, merely as your opinion.

If history has been about best possible interpretation of best available information... The aryan theory had never come into practice..

Why? The best possible information, Sir, was taken, the best available at the time, and the best possible interpretation was put on it. Subsequent information or subsequent detailed analysis then caused modifications. Finally, the introduction of genetic analysis created yet more possibilities, and these are actually being worked out.

Why do you say that the 'Aryan' theory would never have come into practice? Let us get to the reasons why we should consider your opinion as in any way eligible to change the best possible interpretations available.

Nor chandragupta maurya has been considered low caste born... Nor the prithiviraj would have defeated gauri for 17 times.

Considered low caste born by whom, Sir? Obviously you have no clue to who hold these theories, as you have heard of these in the informal discussions that go on in such net forums, without the benefit of academic analysis. Similarly for your story of Prithviraj having defeated Ghori 17 times, when all the evidence points to two separate encounters, and only two.

Your opinion is a valid opinion, as an opinion, but as nothing else. It will have no life beyond this forum, and the collective opinion of your good self and others of a like mind will, at best, go into the writing of biased and tendentious text books that seek to marshal a synthetic version of past events to fight present battles.

It will not form history,other than in your isolated cases, and it will never be accepted into the canonical record.
 
LOL ... strange ignorance & arrogance. It didnt come out of the blue. It was a focused reply to another member.

I do not know what strange ignorance and arrogance you are referring to, Sir; as of now, it is your error entirely, so the ignorance is there. And it is you who insists on imposing it on the rest of us as being historical, which is arrogance.

It still deserves to have been thought through, dear Sir, and if that is an example of what is the result of 'focus', it deserves to lose focus and look at the bigger picture, the actual historical records.
 
Believe me doc... Whatever had happened... The things those historians had said was not happened for real.

And, of course, your opinion is sufficient for the purpose of proof and demolition of the views of professional historians. Do you sincerely believe that, Sir?
 
I do not know what strange ignorance and arrogance you are referring to, Sir; as of now, it is your error entirely, so the ignorance is there. And it is you who insists on imposing it on the rest of us as being historical, which is arrogance.

It still deserves to have been thought through, dear Sir, and if that is an example of what is the result of 'focus', it deserves to lose focus and look at the bigger picture, the actual historical records.

"All this claptrap has nothing to do with history #100" - You defend the constrained and biased programming of your brain by calling names to someone else understanding of history without knowing the scientific derivation of it. It is nothing less than ignorance and arrogance. Period.
 
I admit your proficiency in English, I would say it is the best, far ahead, among all on this forum. But that does little to support your argument.

It is not my English, dear Sir, that is under discussion; there has not been any opportunity to put it, specifically, to the test after 1966, and those results are sufficient for a lifetime.

What is under discussion is your logic, and that is a sad discussion, considering the decrepit state of the subject.

Astrology is a science of karma and how it is carried forward from several lives, same as how opening balances are c/f to a new year's account books.

Bullshit.

Dear Sir, before making these pompous statements, please read up on the scientific method; you must know what science is, before venturing to stick it on in the same way that a shopkeeper sticks on a price tag. Science is not a price tag; nor are you entitled to stick it on at random without considering what implications it contains.

Just because you have only heard, seen and understood rocks of coal all around - "mindless superstition", does not mean that diamonds do not exist. It is simply to make a fast buck that people jump into it to claim its knowledge as such, for the reason that there is misery everywhere. Such practitioners themselves are going down the whirlpool of bad Karma by them misleading other people. Bottom line, it is simple case of demand and supply, where quality gets compromised. Brilliant astrologers are rare in today's world. Their existence is in single digits. Next group are advanced learners, and then the rest.

Please condescend to come into the real world. If you, or anyone else, can display that astrology can be proven, you will have earned a fortune. Well-meaning and addle-brained people have been trying that for centuries, without success. I note, with the greatest of appreciation, that you will now surpass their collective failure and convert the promotion of Astrology as a science single-handed, on this forum.

We are truly privileged, and we never even guessed.

Just because Astronomy is promoted by billions of dollars by scientists all around the world, sheep believe in it by simply knowing some basic fundamentals.

Of course, the research, the proofs that go into Astronomy are of no consequence. Only the glittering vision of billions of dollars of 'promotion' going into it; obviously, if similar billions had gone into promoting Astrology, it would have been acknowledged as another equally reputable science.

It is this diseased vision of the process and structure of intellectual thought that is most perilous of all the evils that a closed and superstition-laden mind-set, one that depends on the existence of ghosts and goblins, that is most dangerous. It is the promotion of this diseased vision by diseased intellects, on the sole basis of political authority, rather than academic authority, that threatens our society.

And a life science which leads humans from bondage to liberation is demeaned as superstition. This is the effect of kali yuga where the demon Kali delights to keep its subjects in "Agyan" of what matters.

Obviously you neither know the meaning of life science, nor of the possibility of the existence of the demon Kali

If you do not understand Karma, rebirth, Kali yuga - then you are on the right path of understanding of astrology - "mindless superstition"

This pseudo-scientific nonsense is useful only to professional confidence tricksters for their efforts to convince people to invest money in their confidence tricks. It has zero value beyond that.
 
"All this claptrap has nothing to do with history #100" - You defend the constrained and biased programming of your brain by calling names to someone else understanding of history without knowing the scientific derivation of it. It is nothing less than ignorance and arrogance. Period.

LOL.

There is no scientific derivation. Period.
 
It is not my English, dear Sir, that is under discussion; there has not been any opportunity to put it, specifically, to the test after 1966, and those results are sufficient for a lifetime..

Neither am I discussing your command over English, but you seriously have a Ghajini syndrome - aka short term memory. Here is what you wrote - "There is no question of 'un-knowledgeable', wherever that grammatical abomination has been dragged out from;" - and I acknowledged your command over English language. Be humble to accept admiration from others.

What is under discussion is your logic, and that is a sad discussion, considering the decrepit state of the subject.

Bullshit.

Dear Sir, before making these pompous statements, please read up on the scientific method; you must know what science is, before venturing to stick it on in the same way that a shopkeeper sticks on a price tag. Science is not a price tag; nor are you entitled to stick it on at random without considering what implications it contains.

Please condescend to come into the real world. If you, or anyone else, can display that astrology can be proven, you will have earned a fortune. Well-meaning and addle-brained people have been trying that for centuries, without success. I note, with the greatest of appreciation, that you will now surpass their collective failure and convert the promotion of Astrology as a science single-handed, on this forum.

We are truly privileged, and we never even guessed.

Of course, the research, the proofs that go into Astronomy are of no consequence. Only the glittering vision of billions of dollars of 'promotion' going into it; obviously, if similar billions had gone into promoting Astrology, it would have been acknowledged as another equally reputable science.

It is this diseased vision of the process and structure of intellectual thought that is most perilous of all the evils that a closed and superstition-laden mind-set, one that depends on the existence of ghosts and goblins, that is most dangerous. It is the promotion of this diseased vision by diseased intellects, on the sole basis of political authority, rather than academic authority, that threatens our society.

Obviously you neither know the meaning of life science, nor of the possibility of the existence of the demon Kali

This pseudo-scientific nonsense is useful only to professional confidence tricksters for their efforts to convince people to invest money in their confidence tricks. It has zero value beyond that.

You have a style to demolish other's arguments - by attacking the subject by calling names and fear mongering, rather than being objective.

- sad discussion
- decrepit
- pompous

- diseased vision,
- closed and superstition-laden mind-set,
- existence of ghosts and goblins,
- dangerous, diseased vision by diseased intellects,
- threatens our society
- pseudo-scientific nonsense


you must know what science is, before venturing to stick it on in the same way that a shopkeeper sticks on a price tag

Stop assuming my education, experience and my background. But I seriously doubt yours, because you only seem to parrot what others so called "scientists" have theorized as science based on their convenience and the benefits they derived - the funding of billion dollars, the self aggrandizing for "re-search" patents which already existed, etc. There is nothing original that they could create!! They have simply put together existing energies and matter together to make lifeless things to work. Period. This is material science. They cannot create a single element nor any form of energy from nothing "shunya". But they know where all matter and energy came from - "the Big Bang" and finally gets consumed into - "the black hole", where it disappears into "shunya". They cant go any further than this. They are simply into the process of discovering what already exists and was know to us!!

And modern life science is a big SCAM to rip humanity into everlasting self-torture.

If you, or anyone else, can display that astrology can be proven, you will have earned a fortune

excuse me, but earning a fortune is not the purpose of my life. I have already explained in my previous post - it is about Karma and liberation.
 
Neither am I discussing your command over English, but you seriously have a Ghajini syndrome - aka short term memory. Here is what you wrote - "There is no question of 'un-knowledgeable', wherever that grammatical abomination has been dragged out from;" - and I acknowledged your command over English language. Be humble to accept admiration from others.

Too late for that, dear Sir. Praising my English and admiring it is an excessively trodden down path.

You have a style to demolish other's arguments - by attacking the subject by calling names and fear mongering, rather than being objective.

- sad discussion
- decrepit
- pompous

- diseased vision,
- closed and superstition-laden mind-set,
- existence of ghosts and goblins,
- dangerous, diseased vision by diseased intellects,
- threatens our society
- pseudo-scientific nonsense

Unfortunate, Sir, because these are all accurate. It is a sad discussion, when one of the discussants is mired in superstition and ignorance; it is decrepit, in the sense of the literal meaning of the term; it is also pompous, demonstrating diseased vision, displaying a closed and superstition-laden mindset. It does reflect the existence of ghosts and goblins; what else is Kali supposed to be? We have spoken already of diseased vision, surely it does not offend you so hugely to add diseased intellects to it? what was it that was said about the kind of character that swallows a camel and strains at a gnat?

I hope you will grant me the liberal freedom to voice an opinion, even a pompous opinion born of a diseased vision and displaying a closed and superstition-laden mind-set that acknowledges the existence of ghosts and goblins, to the effect that such things threaten our society. I hope that same liberal attitude in allowing me to claim that these are pseudo-scientific, in that they ape the language and apparel of science, but have nothing remotely akin to science within them.

Stop assuming my education, experience and my background.

Unfortunately, the intellectual predispositions demonstrated come from only a certain kind of background training (not education), experience and background. The principle used is, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it IS a duck.

But I seriously doubt yours, because you only seem to parrot what others so called "scientists" have theorized as science based on their convenience and the benefits they derived - the funding of billion dollars, the self aggrandizing for "re-search" patents which already existed, etc.

Please feel free to do so, Sir. It doesn't bother me. I have only a minute amount of contempt to spare for those who challenge me on those grounds, and that amount is exhausted in one post of this sort.

As for the rage displayed at the so called scientists, that speaks volumes about your own experience and background, not about what is wrong with the world, that can be cured with a minute amount of cultural regression.

There is nothing original that they could create!! They have simply put together existing energies and matter together to make lifeless things to work. Period. This is material science. They cannot create a single element nor any form of energy from nothing "shunya". But they know where all matter and energy came from - "the Big Bang" and finally gets consumed into - "the black hole", where it disappears into "shunya". They cant go any further than this. They are simply into the process of discovering what already exists and was know to us!!

And modern life science is a big SCAM to rip humanity into everlasting self-torture.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Apparently, Sir, tenure is difficult of attainment; after attaining this Holy Grail, continued recognition for the sterile of mind is another obstacle. It is better to blast them with the charge of imitative practices recycling what has already been done, and with excessive dependence on billions of dollars for self-promotion to hide their inadequacy of original research, than to try to compete with them.

Please be sure, Sir, your plight attracts sympathy along with pity. It is still possible to abandon the Californians to their hedonistic life-style and to return to India to deceive some gullibles and earn a very decent living from their dakshina. You could take a cue from another retired engineer and launch, say, the Art of Loving series.

excuse me, but earning a fortune is not the purpose of my life. I have already explained in my previous post - it is about Karma and liberation.

Oops! Sir, a thousand apologies. I was not aware that matters are in such a perilous state.

Yes, let us agree to leave these mundane things behind to those who can achieve them, and let us move on to the realm of the higher mind.

As the word on the banner proclaimed, Sir, "Excelsior".
 
It
What makes the world believe 2000 years old Jesus as history, 6th BC Buddha as history but the dark period of Indian history pre-Buddha as not history? Based on the Nakshtra placements of the Mahabarata war, the exact date was around 3102 BC (or somewhere very close to it).

If someone in un-knowledgable of a certain science like Astronomy & Astrology, it does not mean that he/she reserves the right to outright discard its existence.
It would be great if stop posting these unrelated posts.. What I suggest you that you open a thread on this in members section and we will discuss it there.

Now would you like to return to the topic.
 
Some historians are of the opinion that the pandavas were Tibetan invaders , based on the fact that they indulged in polyandry in draupadi's case . Polyandry is a Tibetan custom . Also pandu sent his wives to get impregnated by others, that too in the mountains near Tibet. No self respecting aryan would indulge in polyandry and allow his wife to get impregnated by others.

Those who have studied the Mahabharata say that the ways and manners of kauravas are sophisticated and those of pandavas are rude and uncivilized. Maybe the pandavas were Tibetan invaders who defeated the Aryan kauravas and wrote history in their own favour after killing them .

Do you understand that Pandavas and Kauravas grew together? Pandu had a disease and hence sent his wife to someone else to get impregnated.

The real war of Mahabharatha did not happen because of property division. Pandavas had accepted their defeat in the game of dice. It was the Draupadi's Vastra-arohana that started all this.

So, don't mistake Mahabharatha to be a property dispute or as an invasion. Pandu and Dhritharashtra grew in the same household and their children also studied together under Drona-Acharya
 
Do you understand that Pandavas and Kauravas grew together? Pandu had a disease and hence sent his wife to someone else to get impregnated.

The real war of Mahabharatha did not happen because of property division. Pandavas had accepted their defeat in the game of dice. It was the Draupadi's Vastra-arohana that started all this.

So, don't mistake Mahabharatha to be a property dispute or as an invasion. Pandu and Dhritharashtra grew in the same household and their children also studied together under Drona-Acharya

Offcourse vastra haran of Draupadi must have hurt the conscience of a group of MEN who put their wife as a bet in a game of dice. Aakhir asmita ka sawal tha.
 
Offcourse vastra haran of Draupadi must have hurt the conscience of a group of MEN who put their wife as a bet in a game of dice. Aakhir asmita ka sawal tha.
Yes, that is the point. I never claimed that Yudhishtir was right nor did I claim that Kauravas are right. The war of Mahabhratha was a dharma yuddha and not adharma yuddha. In other words, both sides agreed that there is a difference of opinion and hence fought based on rules.

Mahabhratha doesn't claim that Duryodhana was a Rakshasa as you try to portray. It was merely an event of war between 2 sides. It is wrong to claim Mahabharatha writes badly about Kauravas. Even Gita says clearly that Arjuna didn't want to fight. Karna was shown to be a dana-vir.

The problem is with your perception rather than the narration.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Shashank
Yes, that is the point. I never claimed that Yudhishtir was right nor did I claim that Kauravas are right. The war of Mahabhratha was a dharma yuddha and not adharma yuddha. In other words, both sides agreed that there is a difference of opinion and hence fought based on rules.

Mahabhratha doesn't claim that Duryodhana was a Rakshasa as you try to portray. It was merely an event of war between 2 sides. It is wrong to claim Mahabharatha writes badly about Kauravas. Even Gita says clearly that Arjuna didn't want to fight. Karna was shown to be a dana-vir.

The problem is with your perception rather than the narration.

Who were at side of dharma? The one who put women as a bet? Or the one who send there son to die to save their own asses?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nikhil
Who were at side of dharma? The one who put women as a bet? Or the one who send there son to die to save their own asses?

No one was on the side of dharma. Yudhishtira had no right to place anyone but himself as a bet. Yudhishtira was wrong. But, Duryodhana broke the code of war in the middle and started adharma yuddha, ran away from battle and hence showed adharma here. It was perfectly fine had both the sides been fighting as decided previously.

It was Krishna who sent Abhimanyu to war and also sacrificed sons of Pandavas in the wax house. Krishna was never claimed to be on the side of dharma. He was claimed to be a kutantri. He never did anything wrong or broke his words but always acted in a sly and opportunistic manner.

There is no real conclusion to be drawn from the war except that there was a war. Asking who was right is like asking who was right in World War 1. The answer is - this was not a question of right or wrong but a way of settling differences
 
No one was on the side of dharma. Yudhishtira had no right to place anyone but himself as a bet. Yudhishtira was wrong. But, Duryodhana broke the code of war in the middle and started adharma yuddha, ran away from battle and hence showed adharma here. It was perfectly fine had both the sides been fighting as decided previously.

It was Krishna who sent Abhimanyu to war and also sacrificed sons of Pandavas in the wax house. Krishna was never claimed to be on the side of dharma. He was claimed to be a kutantri. He never did anything wrong or broke his words but always acted in a sly and opportunistic manner.

There is no real conclusion to be drawn from the war except that there was a war. Asking who was right is like asking who was right in World War 1. The answer is - this was not a question of right or wrong but a way of settling differences

I am not talking of Abhimanyu, but Ghatotkashk son of Bhim who was sent to be killed by Amoghsakti of Karna to save Arjun.

A war between adharmi and more adharmi can not be term as dharm yudh. Its called a slug fest.
 
No one was on the side of dharma. Yudhishtira had no right to place anyone but himself as a bet. Yudhishtira was wrong. But, Duryodhana broke the code of war in the middle and started adharma yuddha, ran away from battle and hence showed adharma here. It was perfectly fine had both the sides been fighting as decided previously.

It was Krishna who sent Abhimanyu to war and also sacrificed sons of Pandavas in the wax house. Krishna was never claimed to be on the side of dharma. He was claimed to be a kutantri. He never did anything wrong or broke his words but always acted in a sly and opportunistic manner.

There is no real conclusion to be drawn from the war except that there was a war. Asking who was right is like asking who was right in World War 1. The answer is - this was not a question of right or wrong but a way of settling differences

Krishna never asked Abhimanyu to go to war . Abhimanyu joined the Pandavas side of his own volition.Subhadra objected to it like probably any mother would . Arjun acquiesced to Abhimanyu's demand .

W.r.t the House of lac , Krishna wasn't involved nor were the sons of the Pandavas involved. The Pandavas on learning from Vidura that Duryodhana contracted Purochana to build the house of lac with the intention of burning it down with the Pandavas withing it , invited a tribal family of 5 brothers with their mother , treated them to fine food asked them to stay behind and rest while they made good their escape in a tunnel under the same house after setting the mansion on fire .
 
Who were at side of dharma? The one who put women as a bet? Or the one who send there son to die to save their own asses?
Yudhishthir lost himself as bet and hence had no option but to comply with the instructions of his masters. He was ordered to place draupadi as bet.