Is history actually written by victors ?

What a beautiful thread.......Request all not to get into any chit chat or off topic posts... had to delete some of the posts.... just to maintain the high quality of discussion....
 
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It is incredible that we have to read as a criticism that an historian held a professional opinion in spite of millions of Indians thinking otherwise; in other words, history is supposed to represent, to this individual, the majority view, not the historically accurate view.

That does not mean that the historian was right or wrong; it means that the member making the criticism is used only to considering that prejudice and bias permeates social science through and through.
So it's "professional opinion" to call the elected leader as darkest moment of history? One who got million of votes is darkest thing ever happened to India but that professional opinion somehow get mum when democracy is murdered(emergency n other mockery of India during it) that was most glorious thing right? Oh wait that is just criticism, freedom of expression, it's amazing how people get away with saying anything with zero accountibilty by using fancy terms!

Of course, IMF pressure is a Good Thing. More example of total bias.

Pressure? You for real? Those were conditions, written down in aggrement as articles and it's from 1952 applicable on everyone. If you don't meet those conditions they will withheld the money.

But this all again need to read more about IMF, how it functions we can always twist it as per need and call other biased, simple and easy.
 
So the work of all historians is judged by the rubbish brought out by a bunch of paid hacks? Further, would you teach a child that these vicious things happened (to the three followers of the Guru, not to the Gurus themselves, as falsely described), and leave it to the immediate teachers to explain that in that time and age, the Inquisition was burning dozens of people alive for disagreement on arcane points of theology?

Fortunately, as I was not taught history through NCERT textbooks, I did not have to read about the 1962 war not taking place; it is another thing that I lived through that, and saw, and read, everything. The criticism about its omission is valid, but it is not clear to me why that war should occur in an history text. Where did those text books end?
Ofcourse we don't teach gruesome things to children in detail but we do mention the wrong doings while mentioning it, hailing them as great ruler don't we? If we just present one side is it complete history?

All Indian Wars must be there in text books, everyone must know that the freedom they enjoy comes at a cost, so that they feel the need to introspect when they join the chorus of "Bharat tere tukde honge", that while they hide in a like minded crowd of giving aazadi to Kashmir they must know what is the actual status of Kashmir, how dearly we paid for our land.
 
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So it's "professional opinion" to call the elected leader as darkest moment of history? One who got million of votes is darkest thing ever happened to India but that professional opinion somehow get mum when democracy is murdered(emergency n other mockery of India during it) that was most glorious thing right? Oh wait that is just criticism, freedom of expression, it's amazing how people get away with saying anything with zero accountibilty by using fancy terms!



Pressure? You for real? Those were conditions, written down in aggrement as articles and it's from 1952 applicable on everyone. If you don't meet those conditions they will withheld the money.

But this all again need to read more about IMF, how it functions we can always twist it as per need and call other biased, simple and easy.

Destry Rides Again. How boring.
 
Madame.

I do not know which NCERT books did you read. But in ones I read and I concede it’s been years a score and more now, I have not read versions as above.

While former is hailed as a hero ( a lie) the latter have always been termed as rulers of India. A fact.



My Nephew & Niece are at School. I can share several Pages Glorifying Mughals or wherein Mughal Rulers are covered in Pages and Hindu Rulers in just a Paragraph or lines.

Here's an Example from NCERT Book:

DIN8LN2UwAABEF4.jpg





Bhagat Singh: A Revolutionary Terrorist - The people who wrote this are eminent Leftist. This was thought in DU:

bhagatsingh.jpg



A political campaign but has unfortunately found itself in school textbooks. But we don't see anything about 84 Genocide in Text Books:

godhra.jpg
godhra2.jpg





Madame

Perhaps you can cite these? I am not sure which NCERT books have you read but in ours, it was clearly written that Aurangzeb was a religious zealot. Of course my book was prescribed at Bishop’s School, Pune.


Aurangzeb: I refereed to Western Historians who describe him as True Secular Ruler. Some NCERT Text also portrays him as True Momin.

At JNU one was taught that Sita Maa was Daughter of Ravana and Laxshman had affair with her. This was taken to SC but they refused to take any action against it. This was taken up with University Vice-Chancellor and later removed from DU. I had posted Video on this but that Post was deleted.

Historians protest as Delhi University purges Ramayana essay from syllabus
 
@Hellfire : 1. This Distorted History is part of Class V History Syllabus in Delhi/Mumbai and thought to 9-10 years Lads. Lakhbaksh, Generous , treated Hindus well is Hero quip?

2. This been Thought in Delhi University in 2016 and do not know about now.

PS: Allow me sometime, so that I can get Literature & share the Distorted History/Glorification if Mughals in NCERT Books. Will then answer #2 Part in details. :)
 
Some historians are of the opinion that the pandavas were Tibetan invaders , based on the fact that they indulged in polyandry in draupadi's case . Polyandry is a Tibetan custom .

"Some historians" - they are not historians, they are spin doctors who manufacture new information with a preconceived agenda and intention to gather individuals seeking attention, to grow into the so called "free thinkers" leading to misuse of "freedom of speech and expression" - the likes of Bhansali. It is certain that neither have you read the Mahabharata nor have your "some historians" read it. Neither the Pandavas were intersted in polyandry nor was Draupadi or for that matter Kunti. Draupadi out of her "tapasyaa" in past life got a boon for a husband in next life with the supreme qualities which a single human could not possess. They were mutually exclusive. Next, since Kunti like every other day ordered her sons to "divide" between them whatever they got in the evening that day, the sons had to obey to their mothers. That was the virtue of Dwapar yuga.

The premise for this argument is tapasyaa, rebirth and karma.

Also pandu sent his wives to get impregnated by others, that too in the mountains near Tibet.
Absolutely RUBBISH. Are you also one of the "Some historians" with a similar agenda? First read the Mahabharata, and you will learn the facts. Human karma largely constrained and controlled by materialism, human brains have have lost the understanding of higher principles of existence - the energy principles. The most one can witness today is hypnotism where sound energy with specific vibrations can control the mind of another human mind - for good or bad. Islamic Terrorism is one great example of mind control which turns humans to devils.

It is a similar higher level energy principle used for positive good which was used by Kundi and Madri to get concieved by the Gods of their choice. And they had to do this to continue their lineage as Pandu was cursed for death if he ever mated.

Why do people eugolize SRK who got his son via IVF as well as the Backchod KJ who surrogated twins? Can you get those "Some historians" to concieve an agenda for these people too?

No self respecting aryan would indulge in polyandry and allow his wife to get impregnated by others.

It was the curse to Pandu which compelled the two wives to seek for the seeds from outside their marriage. it was not as if the two wives were in regular affair with those gods.

Those who have studied the Mahabharata say that the ways and manners of kauravas are sophisticated and those of pandavas are rude and uncivilized.

Sophisticated - betrayal, deception, attempt to murder in the Lakshagraha episode, unrobe a princess in Dhrishtra's court, corrupt and cheating in the Chausar game - all the qualities you can find even today in their latest avatar - the Congress!! This is real sophistication.

Honest to their word, polite, virtuous, obedient and respectful to elders, etc - are "rude and uncivilized" - Kudos!! Bravo!!

Maybe the pandavas were Tibetan invaders who defeated the Aryan kauravas and wrote history in their own favour after killing them .

"Maybe" - NOT!!
 
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And again in consonance with a narrative aimed at self projection! 1962 is an example, a travesty of facts mainstreamed into the psyche of the nation with the oft repeated refrain of initiation of hostilities by China whereas the recorded fact is of Indian troops crossing North of McMahon and a targetted and specific strike only being undertaken by China against that incursion initially. The Indian action across McMahon line in support of our troops was the trigger of larger conflict.
Self-defense, self-esteem, self- respect, self-preservation... These and some thousand other selfs are the defining parameters of a human and so the society and nation.

Few post earlier someone mentioned Mahabharata and i said i am from the kouravs camp because logic, information and acts clearly put them into right but mass believe that they were evil... I always said that there is no absolute truth.. There is your truth and there is my truth.

Now looks like we have to create a second version of it.. There is no absolute history.. There is your history and there is my history ( opinion)


On 1962 i do know about that but if we consider then nobody blaims the woodcutter when wolves take your children for food from village they always blame wolves.

And 1962 is too recent to be considered history property.. I think some good man has once said to fully understand the effects of frech revolution we need to wait a few centuries..


Now history is not just for information, facts, and let people know how were Thier ancestors... History is more about perception and the needs of nation from history.

And the perception and survival of young and recently independent India was with china being the aggressor and so china is aggressor.
 
"Some historians" - they are not historians, they are spin doctors who manufacture new information with a preconceived agenda and intention to gather individuals seeking attention, to grow into the so called "free thinkers" leading to misuse of "freedom of speech and expression" - the likes of Bhansali. It is certain that neither have you read the Mahabharata nor have your "some historians" read it. Neither the Pandavas were intersted in polyandry nor was Draupadi or for that matter Kunti. Draupadi out of her "tapasyaa" in past life got a boon for a husband in next life with the supreme qualities which a single human could not possess. They were mutually exclusive. Next, since Kunti like every other day ordered her sons to "divide" between them whatever they got in the evening that day, the sons had to obey to their mothers. That was the virtue of Dwapar yuga.

The premise for this argument is tapasyaa, rebirth and karma.


Absolutely RUBBISH. Are you also one of the "Some historians" with a similar agenda? First read the Mahabharata, and you will learn the facts. Human karma largely constrained and controlled by materialism, human brains have have lost the understanding of higher principles of existence - the energy principles. The most one can witness today is hypnotism where sound energy with specific vibrations can control the mind of another human mind - for good or bad. Islamic Terrorism is one great example of mind control which turns humans to devils.

It is a similar higher level energy principle used for positive good which was used by Kundi and Madri to get concieved by the Gods of their choice. And they had to do this to continue their lineage as Pandu was cursed for death if he ever mated.

Why do people eugolize SRK who got his son via IVF as well as the Backchod KJ who surrogated twins? Can you get those "Some historians" to concieve an agenda for these people too?



It was the curse to Pandu which compelled the two wives to seek for the seeds from outside their marriage. it was not as if the two wives were in regular affair with those gods.



Sophisticated - betrayal, deception, attempt to murder in the Lakshagraha episode, unrobe a princess in Dhrishtra's court, corrupt and cheating in the Chausar game - all the qualities you can find even today in their latest avatar - the Congress!! This is real sophistication.

Honest to their word, polite, virtuous, obedient and respectful to elders, etc - are "rude and uncivilized" - Kudos!! Bravo!!



"Maybe" - NOT!!
Obviously you are a religious person who believes that Mahabharata as written is for real, while I am a rationalist who wants to know what really happened. There can be no agreement between us . We will have to agree to disagree.
 
Exactly.

I subscribe to Clausewitzian philosophy .... I can not judge history without being completely aware of the facts and conditions as faced by the actors of the time (see the Jominian thought.) ;)

That is why Intelligence inputs plays such supreme role in decision making of all aspects of a State.
 
Understanding history free from one's own biases is perhaps the hardest of all.

Actors involved in history were humans. Hence, we need to use our human abilities to Understand history. And, not through many recursion, you will soon stumble upon an assumption for anyone's "Understanding". So bias is an inevitable hidden root in every human's understanding.
 
Possibly.

As already pointed out, it is an Indian idiocy to conflate history and story ; to put an historical twist to things, cf. #66, point 2.

What makes the world believe 2000 years old Jesus as history, 6th BC Buddha as history but the dark period of Indian history pre-Buddha as not history? Based on the Nakshtra placements of the Mahabarata war, the exact date was around 3102 BC (or somewhere very close to it).

If someone in un-knowledgable of a certain science like Astronomy & Astrology, it does not mean that he/she reserves the right to outright discard its existence.
 
Obviously you are a religious person who believes that Mahabharata as written is for real, while I am a rationalist who wants to know what really happened. There can be no agreement between us . We will have to agree to disagree.

I was a religious person, now I am transformed into spiritual. Mahabharata is happening every moment now in everyone's life. It was all about lust, greed, arrogance, blind ambition, attachment, envy, anger, jealousy, injustice on the one hand and devotion, virtuous, ethical, upright, truthful on the other.

When we direct our intelligence towards the need of our mind, the craving of our senses and body, we mask ourselves as rationalists. But when our intelligence turns 180 deg to the other side towards that one single supreme energy of the universe, we become spiritualist.
 
Self-defense, self-esteem, self- respect, self-preservation... These and some thousand other selfs are the defining parameters of a human and so the society and nation.

Few post earlier someone mentioned Mahabharata and i said i am from the kouravs camp because logic, information and acts clearly put them into right but mass believe that they were evil... I always said that there is no absolute truth.. There is your truth and there is my truth.

Now looks like we have to create a second version of it.. There is no absolute history.. There is your history and there is my history ( opinion)


On 1962 i do know about that but if we consider then nobody blaims the woodcutter when wolves take your children for food from village they always blame wolves.

And 1962 is too recent to be considered history property.. I think some good man has once said to fully understand the effects of frech revolution we need to wait a few centuries..


Now history is not just for information, facts, and let people know how were Thier ancestors... History is more about perception and the needs of nation from history.

And the perception and survival of young and recently independent India was with china being the aggressor and so china is aggressor
.

And that is in sharp contradiction of the historical facts on record. History is not concerned with perception, history is concerned with the best available interpretation of the best available information. Please do not degrade this discipline to another majoritarian pursuit of self-gratification in the teeth of the facts.
 
That is why Intelligence inputs plays such supreme role in decision making of all aspects of a State.

As it happens, intelligence, without a capital 'I', plays a supreme role in deciding what to say in a post and what not to say.
 
What makes the world believe 2000 years old Jesus as history, 6th BC Buddha as history but the dark period of Indian history pre-Buddha as not history? Based on the Nakshtra placements of the Mahabarata war, the exact date was around 3102 BC (or somewhere very close to it).

If someone in un-knowledgable of a certain science like Astronomy & Astrology, it does not mean that he/she reserves the right to outright discard its existence.

We must distinguish between Astronomy, the actual observation of the heavenly bodies, and Astrology, applying that information to interpret human affairs and terrestrial behaviour. The one is science, advanced science; the other is charlatanry. There is no question of 'un-knowledgeable', wherever that grammatical abomination has been dragged out from; the right to outright discard this pseudo-science, meant for the delectation of females of intermediate age who have excessive time on their hands, and idiots who determine their children's compatibility with other children in marriage using this codswallop.

Having the liberty to post in these columns does not carry the license to inflict mindless superstition on others.
 
I was a religious person, now I am transformed into spiritual. Mahabharata is happening every moment now in everyone's life. It was all about lust, greed, arrogance, blind ambition, attachment, envy, anger, jealousy, injustice on the one hand and devotion, virtuous, ethical, upright, truthful on the other.

When we direct our intelligence towards the need of our mind, the craving of our senses and body, we mask ourselves as rationalists. But when our intelligence turns 180 deg to the other side towards that one single supreme energy of the universe, we become spiritualist.

All this claptrap has nothing to do with history. Please stick to the subject.