Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates

Ginvincible

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Here's a very interesting thread. From post 4 to 26. All posts made nearly a year before the final version of the LCA Mk2 was released to the world.


This is the level of quality I have to deal with.

Definitely read post 58 in the end as well. It comes back full circle.

Post 60 is the funniest. Ah, karma.

@Ginvincible
What do you think?
From my very detached perspective, I feel that the Indian defense planning, procurement and development arms aren't super coordinated. What might seem logical to outside observers based on the geopolitics/economics is only sometimes the direction the Indian defense establishment moves in. I think this is the product of the various institutions and groups not having the full picture on the activities of the others, and so are not really able to plan in accordance. Internal politics also plays a part in it. From the very thread you linked you were talking about major publications on the mk2 that were a out of date by over a year...

The point being, anybody who is able to make sense on the inner workings of India's defense planning and procurement spends a lot of time thinking about what is feasible from whatever data is available, publicly or otherwise.

OT:
what is the reason Athos is being considered when there are so many domestic options on the table? This feels like the LUH/Ka-226 debacle again, where a domestic option will be ready to be procured in the same timeline as a similar import is made.
 

_Anonymous_

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From my very detached perspective, I feel that the Indian defense planning, procurement and development arms aren't super coordinated. What might seem logical to outside observers based on the geopolitics/economics is only sometimes the direction the Indian defense establishment moves in. I think this is the product of the various institutions and groups not having the full picture on the activities of the others, and so are not really able to plan in accordance. Internal politics also plays a part in it. From the very thread you linked you were talking about major publications on the mk2 that were a out of date by over a year...

The point being, anybody who is able to make sense on the inner workings of India's defense planning and procurement spends a lot of time thinking about what is feasible from whatever data is available, publicly or otherwise.

OT:
what is the reason Athos is being considered when there are so many domestic options on the table? This feels like the LUH/Ka-226 debacle again, where a domestic option will be ready to be procured in the same timeline as a similar import is made.
To begin with Pinnochio's intent wasn't to inform you of the slip between the cup & lip as it were between various arms of the government. It was a childish attempt by an equally childish person determined to have the last word seeing himself isolated seeking support by attempting to inviegle a 3rd party in to a debate of little to no consequences .

On topic , you have to understand that a good part of the various lacunae in defence planning & procurement owes it's origins to a few principal factors namely :

The fledgling ecosystem which has embarked on full fledged R&D complemented by manufacturing in a major way in the past 3 decades on a shoestring budget which have only started delivering acceptable results in the past decade with attendant delays & sub optimal products in between - a likely outcome of any R&D endeavour.

Outside of this is the usual role of vested interests in the form of lobbies , bureaucratic ineptitude & inertness & the most important factor - lack of a proper budget.

The last factor is the lack of co ordination between the armed forces themselves manifesting principally in the lack of a national security doctrine & a national security review from time to time out of which everything else ought to organically flow. This is being remedied to a certain extent by the recent endeavour to promote jointness vide the Theatre Commands , the post of the CDS & other attendant reforms.


Coming to the LUH / Ka-226 , part of it has to do with the first point in my post namely with developmental schedules not being met on time or the results being sub optimal , the MoD & the services decide to be pro active by identifying & concluding MoUs of similar products with foreign firms as a sort of insurance policy.

The Athos program followed the same pattern as described above & in all likelihood would have been overlooked for desi solutions if the Chinese didn't come calling last summer. It's desi counterparts are in various stages of development & fine tuning.
 
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randomradio

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From my very detached perspective, I feel that the Indian defense planning, procurement and development arms aren't super coordinated. What might seem logical to outside observers based on the geopolitics/economics is only sometimes the direction the Indian defense establishment moves in. I think this is the product of the various institutions and groups not having the full picture on the activities of the others, and so are not really able to plan in accordance. Internal politics also plays a part in it. From the very thread you linked you were talking about major publications on the mk2 that were a out of date by over a year...

The point being, anybody who is able to make sense on the inner workings of India's defense planning and procurement spends a lot of time thinking about what is feasible from whatever data is available, publicly or otherwise.

I was actually referring to how disingenous some of these people really are. Remember the HTT-40 discussions?

OT:
what is the reason Athos is being considered when there are so many domestic options on the table?

As mentioned before, there are none. ATAGS is still WIP, it needs to go through its last round of testing before it enters the LSP stage. This will take at least 2 years before the SP begins, so regiments will take at least 3-4 years before they get guns. Even after that it can only be used from some places, not all places, in the mountains. A new lighter ATAGS Mk2 needs to follow for mountain use.

The Dhanush is a clusterfuck, as usual, nothing surprising. Originally, all 114 guns were supposed to have been delivered by the end of 2022, not gonna happen. Not even 1 regiment is ready. The 52cal version is a post 2025 gun.

Bharat 52 is a WIP. It's suitable for mountains, but it needs to also go through the pretty long LSP stage before entering SP and into full regiment induction. It's quite a few years away before that happens.

Even after these guns are ready, the gunners need to complete their training and the guns themselves need to undergo exercises before they can be used in combat.

So, none of the indigenous options are still ready. It's a typical case of being more loyal than the king. The reality is simply different from expectations.

Based on the timeline of induction of all 400 ATHOS, all the guns will come in even before the first SP regiment of any indigenous 155/52mm gun is fully raised. Even with its fastest induction timeframe, it will still take 2 years from the start of contract before it can be used in battle.

As of today, the only artillery guns that have been tested and inducted since the artillery modernisation program began were both imports, the K9 and M777.

Frankly, we are horribly outclassed, we are going to have enough numbers for a limited war only by 2028 or so if we go through a fully indigenous route, considering all the guns clear trials over the next year. And people always forget that it's the artillery that wins wars.

This feels like the LUH/Ka-226 debacle again, where a domestic option will be ready to be procured in the same timeline as a similar import is made.

It's not a debacle. Two options were chosen for the fastest induction possible. Also, the Ka-226T isn't in the same class as the LUH. Arguments could have been made if the Fennec was selected, the LUH outclasses it. But the Ka-226T was selected not due to political reasons but because it's the only light helicopter specifically made for use in mountains. Its stability, ability to climb, safety etc are all in the class of medium helicopters for the price of a light helicopter. This was a conscious decision. Case in point, look at the safety record of the ALH/Mi-17 versus the Alouette III. Single-engine helicopters are not suitable for mountains and never will be.
 
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Milspec

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What? I claimed it wouldn't be available even in 2021, and it's still true.

I was so accurate about the whole thing that now the IAF is being forced to lease more trainers.
Are you sure that's the only thing you claimed?
 

randomradio

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Are you sure that's the only thing you claimed?

About the HTT-40, yes. What you are confusing with is the PC-7, which was before the deal was cancelled due to corruption allegations. Post corruption allegation, we are both on the same page.

But the HTT-40, I was much more than just accurate. Now the plan is to lease trainers for the 3-4 years it will take the HTT-40 to come in. Roughly the time I also pointed out it will take before it becomes an asset. I had also pointed out that the IAF will be forced to look towards our private sector for training, which is what the IAF is planning to do now. I had also pointed out that this will be a very embarrassing moment for the IAF, and now it's happening already.

I find it interesting how he steers clear of you with a 10-foot pole.

You missed it, but we have a no talking to each other policy. But he frequently does his very best to grab my attention whenever the opportunity arises. He can't live without attention after all, especially after he got his best mate GND kicked out, and then his next best pal BMD put him in the forum's Ignorants list. He now has nobody left to talk to. Maybe you will be his next best friend, but do so at your own risk. 'Cause I guarantee there will be some stalking involved.
 
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_Anonymous_

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I find it interesting how he steers clear of you with a 10-foot pole.
I asked him to stop quoting me. We had a fallout. Probably an over reaction on my part but there's only so much BS you can put up with at work or outside of it in real life.

What I find particularly appalling is that seemingly erudite knowledgeable guys resorting to obfuscation , deflection , other underhand tactics etc when there's visibly no material gains to be had. In many ways Pinnochio is the obverse of the same coin as Joe Shearer & to a lesser extent of PKS from Trishul blog fame. The latter two indulge in blatant brow beating among other undermining tactics just to deny that they've ever been wrong. Pinnochio usually bores you to death in typical incel fashion .

We're all amateur defence enthusiasts here . Some more than the others with a few specialists including yourself with exposure to DPSU & a few ex service personnel out here who share their experiences & knowledge which I think is invaluable. Therefore it stands to reason that our knowledge base will be limited & sharing such knowledge is the only way to enhance it .

Just for the record , I didn't get GND or anyone else permabanned. That's not in my nature nor did I ever consider GND to be anything more than a gadfly & I certainly don't enjoy much influence or privileges with the management here . You can check with @Ashwin . We've had our own disputes - not always in good humour , in the past .

If I recall right GND repeatedly violated @Arvind instructions not to broach the North India South India divide issue on a certain thread which he kept ignoring in spite of repeated warnings & got booted out. VSDoc too got booted out on similar grounds on a different thread. I personally feel both of them ought to rejoin the forum. It's been more than a year that they've been banned. That goes for other members like Rathore & Arpit too though I don't know what their individual stories were including others who've been permabanned.

As far as @BMD goes , he's a clown . Was so & will be so . He never had much of an argument to begin with & a very limited vocabulary to express it in with his reasoning being even more limited. It took him all of 6+ yrs to realise it . From I D F to here.
 
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Milspec

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About the HTT-40, yes. What you are confusing with is the PC-7, which was before the deal was cancelled due to corruption allegations. Post corruption allegation, we are both on the same page.

But the HTT-40, I was much more than just accurate. Now the plan is to lease trainers for the 3-4 years it will take the HTT-40 to come in. Roughly the time I also pointed out it will take before it becomes an asset. I had also pointed out that the IAF will be forced to look towards our private sector for training, which is what the IAF is planning to do now. I had also pointed out that this will be a very embarrassing moment for the IAF, and now it's happening already.
MoD can keep denying HAL the clearances and budgetary allocation for the next 20 years and buy more PC7's through hawala if it wishes, there is not much HAL can do at this point.


You missed it, but we have a no talking to each other policy.

Noted.

But he frequently does his very best to grab my attention whenever the opportunity arises. He can't live without attention after all, especially after he got his best mate GND kicked out, and then his next best pal BMD put him in the forum's Ignorants list. He now has nobody left to talk to. Maybe you will be his next best friend, but do so at your own risk. 'Cause I guarantee there will be some stalking involved.
I am friendly to everyone unless you are trying to sell IELTS/GRE/GMAT certificates on the forum.
 
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Milspec

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I asked him to stop quoting me. We had a fallout. Probably an over reaction on my part but there's only so much BS you can put up with at work or outside of it in real life.

What I find particularly appalling is that seemingly erudite knowledgeable guys resorting to obfuscation , deflection , other underhand tactics etc when there's visibly no material gains to be had. In many ways Pinnochio is the obverse of the same coin as Joe Shearer & to a lesser extent of PKS from Trishul blog fame. The latter two indulge in blatant brow beating among other undermining tactics just to deny that they've ever been wrong. Pinnochio usually bores you to death in typical incel fashion .

We're all amateur defence enthusiasts here . Some more than the others with a few specialists including yourself with exposure to DPSU & a few ex service personnel out here who share their experiences & knowledge which I think is invaluable. Therefore it stands to reason that our knowledge base will be limited & sharing such knowledge is the only way to enhance it .

Just for the record , I didn't get GND or anyone else permabanned. That's not in my nature nor did I ever consider GND to be anything more than a gadfly & I certainly don't enjoy much influence or privileges with the management here . You can check with @Ashwin . We've had our own disputes - not always in good humour , in the past .

If I recall right GND repeatedly violated @Arvind instructions not to broach the North India South India divide issue on a certain thread which he kept ignoring in spite of repeated warnings & got booted out. VSDoc too got booted out on similar grounds on a different thread. I personally feel both of them ought to rejoin the forum. It's been more than a year that they've been banned. That goes for other members like Rathore & Arpit too though I don't know what their individual stories were including others who've been permabanned.

As far as @BMD goes , he's a clown . Was so & will be so . He never had much of an argument to begin with & a very limited vocabulary to express it in with his reasoning being even more limited. It took him all of 6+ yrs to realise it . From I D F to here.

I tend not to ban anyone. I will intervene and calm down involved parties, but bans are something tend to stay away from.

As far as @randomradio; I enjoy reading his posts, some of them are extremely informative, but as most of the readers here know there are some aspects that I vehemently oppose in his narrative, and to his credit, he stays true to most of his convictions.
 

randomradio

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MoD can keep denying HAL the clearances and budgetary allocation for the next 20 years and buy more PC7's through hawala if it wishes, there is not much HAL can do at this point.

It was MoD that cancelled the second PC-7 order though.

Regardless, for the sake of national security, even deals that are mired in controversy are pushed through, like the Barak was. Basic trainers are a critical need. We need 181 of them but have only 75. A 60% shortfall is a serious threat if not plugged quickly. The order for 38 would have gone through had it not been for HAL roadblocks. The PC-7 finally ending up in a corruption scandal simply played in their favour in the end.

Now we are seeing the same story with the ATHOS. DPSUs and vested interests do not want an import, even without license production, simply because it hurts their margin. The army itself be damned.

We are currently at ZERO 52 cal towed guns and people do not care at all.
 

randomradio

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Man, I had to google "incel". That page on Wiki... :ROFLMAO:

I didn't know so many things existed. Even that reference to The Matrix.

Well, I actually learned something from Ignorants, finally. I just realised this guy spends way too much time on the internet.
 

Nilgiri

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Lets leave the personal attacks/insinuations out of this stuff guys.

We're all fighting for the same team here....we have different perspectives (mostly from underlying optimism, pessimism, hope vs reality related forces driving it) on certain matters...that of course influences the fact-chain we present and assert.

Rest of audience reading just TIFWIW and you should always freely let them build their own credibility on you rather than get into diminish-game.

It's easier said than done of course (especially when observer like me hasn't followed the preceding context)...but lets give it a try. I have seen greater squabbles come to understanding and reconciliation later just by letting stuff go for some time.

Larger thing is though ....always try give a full benefit of doubt to your countryman whenever and as early as possible.

In foxhole push come to shove situation with life on line and country at stake (whether it ever does arise for you personally)... people like you have and will forge trust with people like them. It is always prudent to keep in mind what is ultimately trivial in the end that occupies much of our peacetime+freetime egos.
 

randomradio

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Great! ATAGS has apparently not even begun high altitude trials. It needs to clear the current lot of trials before it can be taken to the mountains for field testing.
 

Milspec

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It was MoD that cancelled the second PC-7 order though.

Regardless, for the sake of national security, even deals that are mired in controversy are pushed through, like the Barak was. Basic trainers are a critical need. We need 181 of them but have only 75. A 60% shortfall is a serious threat if not plugged quickly. The order for 38 would have gone through had it not been for HAL roadblocks. The PC-7 finally ending up in a corruption scandal simply played in their favour in the end.

Now we are seeing the same story with the ATHOS. DPSUs and vested interests do not want an import, even without license production, simply because it hurts their margin. The army itself be damned.

We are currently at ZERO 52 cal towed guns and people do not care at all.
Care;
So what there is no war either? right?
 

randomradio

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Care;
So what there is no war either? right?

Some things are needed beforehand. Pouring money into its desperately won't get you results.
Some things can be inducted even during one. Pouring enough money into it solves the problem.

It takes 2-3 years to fully train a pilot, then half a lifetime to actually get good. Most gunners take a month or two to be qualified. Not equal problems.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Excerpts from the article :

The industry is hopeful since earlier this year two ATAGS howitzers, one from each private developer, successfully completed winter trials in Sikkim. The two prototypes are headed to Rajasthan this month for summer trials. Successful completion of these trials will clear the acquisition of 150 ATAGS for Rs 3,365 crore. The order will be divided between the two private developers.


But the ATHOS has problems of its own—it is not in service even in the Israeli army and had suffered structural failure during trials in India some years ago.

New offers from the Israeli vendor could open up a potential minefield for the MoD, for they could mean modifications in the original Acceptance of Necessity (AON) of 2007 and the Request for Proposal issued in 2011. These deviations would need either a fresh CCS approval or, as in the case of the MMRCA fighter deal in 2016, a scrapping of the tender and a direct government-to-government buy, as was done with the 36 Rafale jets.

Meanwhile, the DRDO-designed ATAGS successfully completed 90 days of winter trials in Sikkim between January and March 2021, putting a September 2020 incident, when an ATAGS barrel burst during firing trials, behind them. The guns displayed their mobility across a total of 500 km in night conditions, at temperatures of 15 degrees Celsius below zero and at altitudes of over 15,000 feet, and fired 160 rounds without any failures. “The gun has successfully cleared its winter trials and, if the army wants, they can be immediately deployed in the northern borders,” says a developer who wished to not be named.


You may be interested in this article in the light of Pinnochio's pronouncements / predictions as detailed in the above posts . @Milspec

I quite like this cartoon too . How about you ?

 
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Milspec

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Some things are needed beforehand. Pouring money into its desperately won't get you results.
Some things can be inducted even during one. Pouring enough money into it solves the problem.

It takes 2-3 years to fully train a pilot, then half a lifetime to actually get good. Most gunners take a month or two to be qualified. Not equal problems.
iirc
There is no war either, was your response to low numbers of SPH, Towed arty, aswell as 52 cal gun delays.


Are we changing the level of "care" ?

1624115178570.png
 
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Tatvamasi

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Great! ATAGS has apparently not even begun high altitude trials. It needs to clear the current lot of trials before it can be taken to the mountains for field testing.
Not true
DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

New Delhi: Confirmatory desert trials of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, will begin in June.
Sources in the ATAGS development programme told ThePrint that after the summer trials this year, orders can be placed in the industry, following which the system will become operational in the armed forces.

They added that the validation trials at high altitude areas, including mobility trials in hilly and mountainous terrain have been completed.
 
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Sathya

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Ahem, Economics you say... please go on.... This might get interesting. Accurate about HTT40? is this some freaky Friday thing going on the forum I don't know about . @Ashwin @_Anonymous_ @Sathya @suryakiran

It's saddening when we discuss about negative prediction s.. Whatever the reason for delay, we are still the loser.

Been waiting for success story for a long time..
I understood defense R&D programs take decade long gestation period.. But passion, patience & age is running out..

I am guessing induction of TEDBF & AMCA will be post 2040 affairs.

Looked up for excellent alternative s in private sector, who I thought can rally in Indian conditions.. But We are still struggling to get contract.

Need someone like Manohar Parikar or Parikrama @Aashish to stay passionate again.

It's getting difficult to be NOT pessimist.
 

randomradio

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iirc
There is no war either, was your response to low numbers of SPH, Towed arty, aswell as 52 cal gun delays.


Are we changing the level of "care" ?

View attachment 20013

I remember and have already addressed it.

Some things are needed beforehand. Pouring money into its desperately won't get you results.
Some things can be inducted even during one. Pouring enough money into it solves the problem.

It takes 2-3 years to fully train a pilot, then half a lifetime to actually get good. Most gunners take a month or two to be qualified. Not equal problems.


There are over 1200 K9s in service in Korea alone. We should be able to access quite a few of those during wartime by throwing money at the Koreans. Just a 100 more from their inventory will give us 5 more regiments. They have a lot in storage. Not equal problems.

Also that statement was in reference to Pakistan. We are never gonna fight them with our current policy. As for China, our current inventory is more than enough. We apparently have 2 armoured brigades in Ladakh, and we need 1 or 2 more in Sikkim, yet to be raised, which means we need 3 or 4 regiments of K9s, and we have 5. And this is even considering the K9 actually works in the mountains. What the army needs against China is towed guns, and even mounted guns, but towed guns mainly. Please stop taking my posts out of context.