Indian AESA Radar Developments

hellbent

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
611
1,299
This is what we going to do. Indeed.

If you watch carefully images of LRTR over interenet, there are actually 2 different radars, which the Indian defense community/fanboyz named it both as LRTR.

Lol you implying me as a fanboy

I am the source for lrtr pics more or less

And I named it lrtr 1 , lrtr 2 , lrtr 3 for a reason , because documents I accessed mentioned the above nomenclature explicitly .

The initial lrtr from Israel was lrtr 1

The modified DRDO version was lrtr 2

A new version was lrtr 3

All support systems including the 330 KW liquid cooled refrigeration system , a whopping 12 MW power supply system , a dual wave rectifier was purpose built for lrtr 3 and back ported for lrtr 2 . All the above systems are containerised and semi mobile

I even had the location where they installed the entire system for tests . But I did not post it since I didn't want to give out the location.


As for mfcr , I have reasons to believe they upgraded the original one and are building a new one .
 

hellbent

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
611
1,299
10459728_kl_jpeg_jpega267564e5e3d759a4b16db4e46f90f67.jpeg


A new road mobile 3D C/D Band Air Surveillance radar
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,902
6,503
India
Lol you implying me as a fanboy

I am the source for lrtr pics more or less

And I named it lrtr 1 , lrtr 2 , lrtr 3 for a reason , because documents I accessed mentioned the above nomenclature explicitly .

The initial lrtr from Israel was lrtr 1

The modified DRDO version was lrtr 2

A new version was lrtr 3

All support systems including the 330 KW liquid cooled refrigeration system , a whopping 12 MW power supply system , a dual wave rectifier was purpose built for lrtr 3 and back ported for lrtr 2 . All the above systems are containerised and semi mobile

I even had the location where they installed the entire system for tests . But I did not post it since I didn't want to give out the location.


As for mfcr , I have reasons to believe they upgraded the original one and are building a new one .

Yep, there have been 3 versions. 1 was originally designed with Israeli help, followed by an upgraded one. The latest is the 1500Km version that's operational.

More should be in development now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hellbent

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
231
221
Delhi
Lol you implying me as a fanboy

I am the source for lrtr pics more or less

And I named it lrtr 1 , lrtr 2 , lrtr 3 for a reason , because documents I accessed mentioned the above nomenclature explicitly .

The initial lrtr from Israel was lrtr 1

The modified DRDO version was lrtr 2

A new version was lrtr 3

All support systems including the 330 KW liquid cooled refrigeration system , a whopping 12 MW power supply system , a dual wave rectifier was purpose built for lrtr 3 and back ported for lrtr 2 . All the above systems are containerised and semi mobile

I even had the location where they installed the entire system for tests . But I did not post it since I didn't want to give out the location.


As for mfcr , I have reasons to believe they upgraded the original one and are building a new one .
you are not so much important, that I remember who you are and imply you. I don't know what you talking about. And I was replying to @Nikhil for a certain post. I don't know why you think we were talking about you. might be obsession?

As for MFCR, no they didn't. It was directly purchased from thales. But India is free country, one can believe in anything.
 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
476
278
India
The initial lrtr from Israel was lrtr 1

The modified DRDO version was lrtr 2

A new version was lrtr 3
Could you post the pics of Lrtr 2 onwards. is this the new Lrtr 3 ?

10762849_addtext122103_14_40_jpeg0b918d5e27e9a3fc381a8856991fc6d6 (1).jpeg

aka ELTA-ELM-2090S spectra.

I even had the location where they installed the entire system for tests . But I did not post it since I didn't want to give out the location.
Pak IMINT fanboys are already posting Lrtr location over twitter.

EX_JmwcX0AcaK88.jpeg


EX_JoVZWkAAsIg1.jpeg


so you should not think to much about it.
Google earth ki ganga main sab nangay Hain.
 

hellbent

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
611
1,299
Could you post the pics of Lrtr 2 onwards. is this the new Lrtr 3 ?

View attachment 16029
aka ELTA-ELM-2090S spectra.


Pak IMINT fanboys are already posting Lrtr location over twitter.

View attachment 16031

View attachment 16030

so you should not think to much about it.
Google earth ki ganga main sab nangay Hain.

PK is me , so wherever you got the pics , all three are there


As for the " UPGRADED AND LOCALLY BUILT " MFCR

here


Ahg.jpg



I am aware of Google Earth but that doesn't change anything
In a way you get to see , what is allowed to be seen 😉
 
Last edited:

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
476
278
India
There are some compulsion to buy S 400.

But if you talking about capability wise, if they wanted BMD for IRBM/MRBM, they should totally gone for Arrow 3 or THAAD.

S 400 is indeed inferior than these two, and is with very limited BMD capability. And if they wanted a long range SAM, they should gone for Barak 8 ER.

But there were strategic compulsion to buy it, so we buying it.

But we still going to need Indian BMD now to cover inadequacies of S 400.
S 400 is probably the worst deal we signed till date. I wonder what were those strategic compulsion. S 400 is just pure hype and gonna cost us in long run.
I agree should have gone for barak-8ER.
 

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
231
221
Delhi
@The Deterrent you posted this lrtr radar site sometime back on the forum which shall not be named could you provide coordinates for the location?

View attachment 16032

View attachment 16033

View attachment 16034
gettyimages-1598656-1024x1024.jpg

S 400 is probably the worst deal we signed till date. I wonder what were those strategic compulsion. S 400 is just pure hype and gonna cost us in long run.
I agree should have gone for barak-8ER.
But then how we got their cooperation with MIRV, S5 SSBN, and new SLBMs.

There is price to pay for everything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jetray and AbRaj

hellbent

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
611
1,299
De

Definitely ours. Neelkamal chair proves that🤣

You were saying......

images.jpeg


As for the radar that is not ours , look closely at the 3 logos in the posted pic

And then compare it with this

images (3).jpeg


And another same pic without Getty image watermark from a Israeli site

images (2).jpeg



DRDO lrtr does not possess any logo on the radar , forget about 3 logos
 
Last edited:

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
231
221
Delhi
@The Deterrent you posted this lrtr radar site sometime back on the forum which shall not be named could you provide coordinates for the location?

View attachment 16032

View attachment 16033

View attachment 16034


similar facility is also on our testing range.

 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
476
278
India
So here is the Lrtr 1,2,3 image by @hellbent right?

images - 2020-05-25T151344.958.jpeg



Here are the one from DRDO site.
images - 2020-05-25T151306.287.jpeg

images - 2020-05-25T151250.480.jpeg


•Notice the difference? All three are basically the iteration of DRDO swordfish L-band radar. They are all same.

DRDO L-band Lrtr
10762855_addtext122103_15_19_jpeg4e88dcd16418c9a6e0b5c2593c65ee0b (1).jpeg

FmMa7ng.jpg


Now other India BMD radar.

S-Band MFCR
fY9BDvD.jpg


DRDO S-band Lrtr aka elta 2090S spectra.
10762849_addtext122103_14_40_jpeg0b918d5e27e9a3fc381a8856991fc6d6 (1).jpeg


Now since elta 2090S spectra is in use. Guaranteed we also bought 2090 UHF radar.
2090U for longer search and early warning while 2090s for accurate tracking , better target discrimination and Terminal engagement capability.

We don't have power X band AESA radar like AN/TPY-2 so our BMD system has a long way to go. India should have bought THAAD instead wasting money on S-400.
PK is me , so wherever you got the pics , all three are there


As for the " UPGRADED AND LOCALLY BUILT " MFCR

here


View attachment 16036
It's Thales GS 100 S band radar license build in India.
 

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
231
221
Delhi
So here is the Lrtr 1,2,3 image by @hellbent right?

View attachment 16068


Here are the one from DRDO site.
View attachment 16069
View attachment 16070

•Notice the difference? All three are basically the iteration of DRDO swordfish L-band radar. They are all same.

DRDO L-band Lrtr
View attachment 16075
View attachment 16074

Now other India BMD radar.

S-Band MFCR
View attachment 16077

DRDO S-band Lrtr aka elta 2090S spectra.
View attachment 16076

Now since elta 2090S spectra is in use. Guaranteed we also bought 2090 UHF radar.
2090U for longer search and early warning while 2090s for accurate tracking , better target discrimination and Terminal engagement capability.

We don't have power X band AESA radar like AN/TPY-2 so our BMD system has a long way to go. India should have bought THAAD instead wasting money on S-400.

It's Thales GS 100 S band radar license build in India.
I knew it was thales radar, but unable to find which radar it is. Great find.
 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
476
278
India
@Gautam You did mentioned in past that Astra is using this Ku-band PDR seeker.

Astra-1 BVRAAM's Ku-band Seeker (2).jpg


but since DRDO has already developed and tested a Ku-band AESA seeker.

AMP (2).jpg


and even a Ka-band millimetric frequency AESA seeker?
IMG_20200527_075041.jpg
What are the chance of this Ku-band or ka-band AESA seeker in use on Astra BVRAAM ?
 
Last edited:

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,684
7,748
Tripura, NE, India
@Gautam You did mentioned in past that Astra is using this Ku-band PDR seeker.
I did.
but since DRDO has already developed and tested a Ku-band AESA seeker.
This is more recent. The Astra's doppler radar began development in around 2015. The TSA based AESA began development in late 2018. Let me attach a recent thing I posted on twitter to make things clearer.


Compare the TRMs shown in the tweet with those in the second photo you attached or just notice the configuration type of the two radars in the second pic. You will notice they are exactly the same. This is very significant yet most of the defence community in India will simply brush it apart for lack of understanding. A Vivaldi based AESA is essentially the next generation of AESA radar. So in terms of missile seekers this is 2 generations apart from what is currently abundantly used.

A Doppler radar has a flat plate on top. that plate is both the transmitter and the receiver. Thus a doppler radar has just one Transmitter Receiver Module(TRM). A single TRM can produce only a single frequency of EM waves and can thus be easily jammed. To reduce the chances of being jammed the Phased Doppler Radar(PDR) was made. These radars can cope with a change in input power and polarity of the current, with those changes the radar can produce a range of EM waves with in some limits. Thus jamming them is a lot more difficult.

Still problems remained, the PDRs can produce EM waves with in a very limited band width. With the improvement of jamming tech this is becoming inadequate. Thus we can see a movement towards the AESA based seekers. AESA radars have not one but a large number of TRMs, that what gives it the distinctive porcupine like appearance.

Photos for example.
PDR :
1590576883544.png

AESA :
1590576910700.png


The benefits of the AESA over other are obvious and pretty well known. With the AESA radars there is a constant competition for mounting more and more TRMs. More the number of TRMs, more difficult it is evade the radar, more difficult it is to jam the radar and so on. But with more TRMs we need more power, both electrical and computing power.

This is where the TSA comes in. With the TSA, every TRM has 2 transmitters and 2 receivers instead of just one each. Thus by simply using the TSA based TRMs we can double the number of transmitters and receivers than before with in the same space. There will be an increase in power, but it will be a marginal increase not double as we would have otherwise. The cooling requirement will also go up marginally but not substantially. Overall, the TSA based AESA is the future of AESA radars.

This is what I meant by 2 generations apart. In radar tech first came the DR, then PDR, then PESA, then AESA and now we are headed for TSA based AESA. But in missile seekers we are going directly from PDRs to TSA based AESA, skipping both PESA and regular AESA.

But, as always, there are problems. Placing that many transmitters so close to each other will most certainly form a large number of constructive and destructive interference. Thus the resultant waveform of a TSA based radar will be different from a normal AESA radar. The only way to properly understand and map them is by trial and error, only then can we begin writing the codes for the radar to have different scanning modes. This is where we are now, trial and error.

and even a Ka-band millimetric frequency AESA seeker?
IMG_20200527_075041.jpg
Notice the flat plate ? Its is not a AESA for sure. I don't know what it is for. But if I were to guess I would say seeker for a SAM of some kind.

What are the chance of this Ku-band or ka-band AESA seeker in use on Astra BVRAAM ?
For now the chances are very slim. The Vivaldi/TSA based TRMs need much testing. Give it a few years.
 

Nikhil

nik141993
Dec 1, 2017
476
278
India
I did.

This is more recent. The Astra's doppler radar began development in around 2015. The TSA based AESA began development in late 2018. Let me attach a recent thing I posted on twitter to make things clearer.


Compare the TRMs shown in the tweet with those in the second photo you attached or just notice the configuration type of the two radars in the second pic. You will notice they are exactly the same. This is very significant yet most of the defence community in India will simply brush it apart for lack of understanding. A Vivaldi based AESA is essentially the next generation of AESA radar. So in terms of missile seekers this is 2 generations apart from what is currently abundantly used.

A Doppler radar has a flat plate on top. that plate is both the transmitter and the receiver. Thus a doppler radar has just one Transmitter Receiver Module(TRM). A single TRM can produce only a single frequency of EM waves and can thus be easily jammed. To reduce the chances of being jammed the Phased Doppler Radar(PDR) was made. These radars can cope with a change in input power and polarity of the current, with those changes the radar can produce a range of EM waves with in some limits. Thus jamming them is a lot more difficult.

Still problems remained, the PDRs can produce EM waves with in a very limited band width. With the improvement of jamming tech this is becoming inadequate. Thus we can see a movement towards the AESA based seekers. AESA radars have not one but a large number of TRMs, that what gives it the distinctive porcupine like appearance.

Photos for example.
PDR :
View attachment 16108
AESA :
View attachment 16109

The benefits of the AESA over other are obvious and pretty well known. With the AESA radars there is a constant competition for mounting more and more TRMs. More the number of TRMs, more difficult it is evade the radar, more difficult it is to jam the radar and so on. But with more TRMs we need more power, both electrical and computing power.

This is where the TSA comes in. With the TSA, every TRM has 2 transmitters and 2 receivers instead of just one each. Thus by simply using the TSA based TRMs we can double the number of transmitters and receivers than before with in the same space. There will be an increase in power, but it will be a marginal increase not double as we would have otherwise. The cooling requirement will also go up marginally but not substantially. Overall, the TSA based AESA is the future of AESA radars.

This is what I meant by 2 generations apart. In radar tech first came the DR, then PDR, then PESA, then AESA and now we are headed for TSA based AESA. But in missile seekers we are going directly from PDRs to TSA based AESA, skipping both PESA and regular AESA.

But, as always, there are problems. Placing that many transmitters so close to each other will most certainly form a large number of constructive and destructive interference. Thus the resultant waveform of a TSA based radar will be different from a normal AESA radar. The only way to properly understand and map them is by trial and error, only then can we begin writing the codes for the radar to have different scanning modes. This is where we are now, trial and error.


Notice the flat plate ? Its is not a AESA fro sure. I don't know what it is for. But if I were to guess I would say seeker for a SAM of some kind.


For now the chances are very slim. The Vivaldi/TSA based TRMs need much testing. Give it a few years.
I know about Vivaldi/TSA advantage that's why I was surprised when I saw them on those seeker. Thanks for a detailed reply. It's always a pleasure reading your post :)