India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .

It's sad that the last 2 S-400 regiments are now delayed. We could've put one more S-400 system in Arunachal to completely take KJ-500 out of picture. Without AWACS support, PLAAF will find it very difficult to penetrate Indian IADS and overcome IAF fighters.

Coming to IAF fighters, we need Astra 2 quickly to counter PL-15. As the Chinese guy said in the MKI thread, it has got 200kms range at 10km launch height and 1.2M launch. Except Meteor, no IAF BVR currently can match this. Even if PLAAF and IAF fighters detect each other at the same time, PL-15's launch range would force our fighters defensive.

2 more Rafale squadrons should have been ordered way back in 2020, when Galwan happened. 72 Rafale with Meteor are a force-multiplier in themselves. Gov. must understand that this China threat is as real as it can get.
 
Supersonic punch, hypersonic killer boost India’s cruise missile capability

Exhaustive article on the status of Brahmos & other missiles planned / existing in our inventory with a bit of history & what to expect for the future.

Just 1 glaring part which proved jarring . Apparently India & Russia hopes to mfg 5000 nos of various variants of the Brahmos about half of them for export by the middle of this decade i e 2025 . How exactly will we do this , I'm not sure .

Hell I'm not even sure we'd be able to mfg 5000 nos in toto by the end of the decade & if we do whether 2500 nos would actually be exported given it's prohibitive costs . Moreover I'm sure we'd need more than 2500 nos given our looming conflict with China .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Haven't seen a single Ramjet powered BVR from China till date. Apparently, they are finding it much hard to design/develop/produce Meteor like SFDR missile.

That's why we did a joint-venture with the Russians to develop our SFDR. Once matured, it will give us serious advantage over PLAAF.

That long range AWACS/Tanker killer missile is named PL-21 and it is not a ramjet but solid rocket motor missile(maybe having twin-pulse or more).
I don't think we should too flatter the Meteor missile. Both the United States and China have developed it, but both have given it up. Because ramjets accelerate slow, and they have low intake efficiency at high angles of attack.
 
I don't think we should too flatter the Meteor missile. Both the United States and China have developed it, but both have given it up. Because ramjets accelerate slow, and they have low intake efficiency at high angles of attack.
No system is perfect. I understand where you are coming from. But Meteor is next gen solid fuel ducted Ramjet. Its real strength isn't just massive 300+kms range, but its 3 times larger no escape zone. So if you fire Meteor within 100kms Pole, the bandit has little chance of survival.

And Meteor isn't slow. It can do Mach 4+. Only in cruise mode its speed is around 2.5 to 3 Mach. Only downside of Meteor currently is that it doesn't have AESA seeker. That's about it.

Rafale with Meteor is the most dangerous fighter in entire South East Asia. Only rival is J-20 with PL-15 combo.
 
No system is perfect. I understand where you are coming from. But Meteor is next gen solid fuel ducted Ramjet. Its real strength isn't just massive 300+kms range, but its 3 times larger no escape zone. So if you fire Meteor within 100kms Pole, the bandit has little chance of survival.

And Meteor isn't slow. It can do Mach 4+. Only in cruise mode its speed is around 2.5 to 3 Mach. Only downside of Meteor currently is that it doesn't have AESA seeker. That's about it.

Rafale with Meteor is the most dangerous fighter in entire South East Asia. Only rival is J-20 with PL-15 combo.
What I mean is slow acceleration, killing close range is too long, which is unfavorable in stealth air combat,
The range of the meteor missile given by the Hellenic Air Force is about 200KM
Moreover, Rafale is not a stealth fighter, and I hardly say that it is very dangerous,
 
Last edited:
What I mean is slow acceleration, killing close range is too long, which is unfavorable in stealth air combat,
Its speed is comparatively slightly lesser than solid rocket motor based AAMs only when it's intercepting targets at very long ranges(plus 200kms). For within 100kms shot, it's very fast, lethal and remains powered throughout, thus very hard to evade.
The range of the meteor missile given by the Hellenic Air Force is about 200KM
For fighter targets. For slow and large HVAs it's over 300kms max range.
Moreover, Rafale is not a stealth fighter, and I hardly say that it is very dangerous,
Yes, it's not stealth. But it has very high level of sensor fusion and can pin-point locate its targets without actively searching for them just based on their emissions. Now add something like Meteor and it'll blow other non-stealthy targets 200kms away. Against J-20, it'll use its IRST and MICA-IR combo to fight.
 
@randomradio

Apart from purchasing uber expensive drones and relying on Uncle SAM for ISR against China, what local ISR abilities we can develop/deploy against China?

This is one area where we need and are dependent on US' massive ISR network to fight the Chinese. But sooner or later, we'll have to have our indigenous solution here too!
 
Its speed is comparatively slightly lesser than solid rocket motor based AAMs only when it's intercepting targets at very long ranges(plus 200kms). For within 100kms shot, it's very fast, lethal and remains powered throughout, thus very hard to evade
Didn't I make it clear that ramjets have slower acceleration at the beginning than conventional rocket engines, Less maneuverability within 0-50KM than a conventional rocket engine, which is a heavy problem in the age of stealth air combat. The Meteor missile also has a much larger RCS than other missiles because of its two intakes. China developed a ramjet but gave it up
images.jpeg
 
Yes, it's not stealth. But it has very high level of sensor fusion and can pin-point locate its targets without actively searching for them just based on their emissions. Now add something like Meteor and it'll blow other non-stealthy targets 200kms away. Against J-20, it'll use its IRST and MICA-IR combo to fight.
Does sensor fusion here refer to integrated avionics architecture? This seems to be the standard configuration of the 4.5 generation fighter,Even generally believed that avionics relatively backward Su 35 also have,and does not explain the problem, stealth fighters in addition to radar stealth, but also focus on infrared stealth, There is currently no publicly available information on IRST used by Rafale fighters
 
@randomradio

Apart from purchasing uber expensive drones and relying on Uncle SAM for ISR against China, what local ISR abilities we can develop/deploy against China?

This is one area where we need and are dependent on US' massive ISR network to fight the Chinese. But sooner or later, we'll have to have our indigenous solution here too!

Our maritime ISR capability is still under planning stages. Some of it has been built into the Dornier aircraft, but the main capability will be taken up after the AWACS program.

The IN has 3 programs, 1 is an indigenous DRDO design based on the Dornier, the 2nd and 3rd are imported. The 2nd one is on a medium-sized aircraft and the 3rd is the P-8I. So, short, medium and long range.

The MRMRA is yet to be cleared.

It may be indigenised, but I don't know yet.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Didn't I make it clear that ramjets have slower acceleration at the beginning than conventional rocket engines, Less maneuverability within 0-50KM than a conventional rocket engine, which is a heavy problem in the age of stealth air combat. The Meteor missile also has a much larger RCS than other missiles because of its two intakes. China developed a ramjet but gave it up
View attachment 28387

Ramjet is not meant to be used at that range though.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Didn't I make it clear that ramjets have slower acceleration at the beginning than conventional rocket engines, Less maneuverability within 0-50KM than a conventional rocket engine, which is a heavy problem in the age of stealth air combat. The Meteor missile also has a much larger RCS than other missiles because of its two intakes. China developed a ramjet but gave it up
View attachment 28387
Meteor is just not only a ramjet. It has solid rocket fuel booster mode too. In fact, in the initial firing mode, as long as solid rocket booster motor is ignited and burning, it's as fast and maneuverable as any conventional solid rocket fuel based AAM.

So, you are once again wrong regarding Meteor. Here is a diagram of our Astra 3 SFDR. Meteor is very similar. Just look at the area of nozzless booster. Only after that phase, the solid fueled ramjet kicks in. And that initial phase gives it quite a punch. China may have given up on SFDR, but we are pursuing it and very soon it is coming into operational service too:

Screenshot_20230618-115838_Chrome.jpg

Does sensor fusion here refer to integrated avionics architecture? This seems to be the standard configuration of the 4.5 generation fighter,Even generally believed that avionics relatively backward Su 35 also have,and does not explain the problem, stealth fighters in addition to radar stealth, but also focus on infrared stealth, There is currently no publicly available information on IRST used by Rafale fighters
Anything that breathes oxygen has a thermal temperature. And anything that has thermal temperature can be caught on LWIR. Modern QWIP based IRST sensors can even look through VLWIR/FIR(very long wavelength infra red/far infra red) that is above 14 microns. Nothing is going to escape them.

Plus, Rafale has the best sensor fusion of all fighters sans F-35. Your J-11/10/16 don't measure up. Only the J-20 and even that is debatable.
Our maritime ISR capability is still under planning stages. Some of it has been built into the Dornier aircraft, but the main capability will be taken up after the AWACS program.

The IN has 3 programs, 1 is an indigenous DRDO design based on the Dornier, the 2nd and 3rd are imported. The 2nd one is on a medium-sized aircraft and the 3rd is the P-8I. So, short, medium and long range.

The MRMRA is yet to be cleared.

It may be indigenised, but I don't know yet.
Thanks(y)
 
  • Like
Reactions: South block
IAF vs PLAAF threat/capability assessment by former Eastern Command head:


@randomradio from 18:55 onwards, the former AM says that Su-30MKI/BrahMos combo is good enough to choke PLAN in IOR. He didn't talk about need for bombers as such, like you're insinuating in our last discussions about this topic(in Rafale M thread).
 
IAF vs PLAAF threat/capability assessment by former Eastern Command head:


@randomradio from 18:55 onwards, the former AM says that Su-30MKI/BrahMos combo is good enough to choke PLAN in IOR. He didn't talk about need for bombers as such, like you're insinuating in our last discussions about this topic(in Rafale M thread).

He's just giving an example. He's not referring to future needs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
He also candidly admitted that we're lacking in ISR vs the Chinese. What are things we can do to overcome this problem as per you? More satellites, aerostars etc.??

At the border, more aerostats, UAVs and AWACS. Newer fighter radars too. We are already working on that. 31 MQ-9Bs and 97 Rustom 2s are in the works too.

Otherwise, we need a global sat-based system like what the US is developing, presumably China too.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Rajput Lion
At the border, more aerostats, UAVs and AWACS. Newer fighter radars too. We are already working on that. 31 MQ-9Bs and 97 Rustom 2s are in the works too.

Otherwise, we need a global sat-based system like what the US is developing, presumably China too.
What about series of passive acoustic radars all across LAC to listen to any Chinese VLO intrusion? Will that work?