India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
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So what is it Pakistan never going to come out and fail or it will not fail and hang in there? Two contrary things you have said in one reply unless you are recommending India needs to help Pakistan to come out of this crisis as you claimed it won't come out of it.
This is epic.
China - Too strong, you will lose just suck it up.
Moderate Pakistan - We need few years to fight, we are not prepared, bear the losses.
Weak Pakistan - Too dangerous, stay away.
So we have reason to justify everything.
You may not have to wait for long to see it, and it's okay to kill Indians in batch of 5 as 40 is a big number?
Seriously! Unbelievable! We are so gullible or desperate to justify Mr. Modi that we will repeat Pakistani line word to word! This is unreal.
You think there is actually something called "non state actors" and they can operate without will of Pakistani army? Oh dear!
The problem is also of the GoI, tardy project execution by MES and simple shortage of funding for speedy upgrades. Returfing in few important strips is being undertaken, but at a pace that is slower than what is expected. Also, the paradox of old equipment still in use and queries on buying upgraded support gear to use it, is a major handicap.
Example, an aircraft is older model, still in use. But when a proposal to buy logistics and replenishment vehicles specifically for it which are cost effective, modernized and more capable, the logic comes forth of the need to but stuff when aircraft is to be phased out. But the cost of maintaining the existing fleet of support vehicles is more costly. So, we end up underutilizing the aircraft as spares are not found for the support vehicles and that increases the time for everything. This is just an example ... RIP logic
sir , i dont believe in thousand cuts principles . calling a spade a spade is not crime nor it is unjustified , if it hurts others is not my problem .Might not wanna go that route, your angst at him, will paint many others wi
Who needs us when their own rip them apart
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i know he dont have answer to my question . impossible for him or any other alive in the world to prove what i said !
My bad, I never got around to finishing that. I need a few hours to collect all that information and I'm also waiting for the status of a few stuff that were pushed into the new term.
But yeah, when it comes to defence research in India, we are entering the New Testament phase.
I don't think the Russians can sell us out to the Pakistanis. Even if they did, that will kill their reputation.
New research is always possible, but I don't think the Russians will be a good partner in the future for big ticket JVs. If you look at what might happen after 2030 or so, Indian companies may very well insist on getting full control of the projects rather than share it with another country. Even the forces will want to protect IP. We saw that recently with the FGFA, where the IAF wanted to prevent their specific version from being exported to other countries.
Whatever's being done to China today will happen to India after 2030. You can expect that all major countries will eventually go into a technological denial spree the moment we start threatening all their markets. I mean, think about it, India is the only country in the world that can sell to countries allied to the East and the West. We can sell to the US, Germany and UK, and also sell to Russia, Algeria and Vietnam. And here we have Modi wanting to make India a defence exports powerhouse by the time his new terms ends. So he's already signalled the threat India will pose to global markets.
To top that off, we won't need JVs for the sake of financial support in order to sustain a project.
Not to mention, DRDO will veto most of the JVs anyway, like they did with FGFA. A very important point to remember.
I'm not saying cooperation will disappear, but right now, all our JVs are just technology imports for stuff we can't yet build on our own, and that will end post 2030 because DRDO has started catching up.
And where exactly I did recommend to help Pakistan to come out of this situation?? I just asked you to explain how Pakistan can come out of this shit and you didn't have any answer for that. If Pakistan is going to go down anyway why do you want get into that mess and pay some price in return?? Where is the contradiction ??
Well this "EPIC" is you figment of imagination, not mine. In my whole reply I didn't find any mention of "China", yet you took enough liberty to include you assumptions as mine !! Dude, you need to be objective in you reply and don't assume anything or read in between lines. Just stick to the point.
When exactly I said it's ok for Indians to die ?? Another display of imagination!!
For every act of terrorism, there should be a measured retaliation. But I would leave it to the concerned authorities to chose the time, place and scale of operation.
Lol, you must be naive to assume that every bloody terrorist takes some kind of approval from PA before striking!! Ever heard about the lone wolf attacks ??
BTW, I wouldn't dare to justify Modi one way or other. He is chosen as PM of this country and has access to a lot more information than us and has a set of advisors who are far more qualified than us. So, this is strictly my personal opinion and you have every right to agree/disagree.
If tomorrow Mr Modi decides to get into a full fledged war with Pakistan, I will be the first one to object.
Go on, list the lone wolf attacks in India by Pakistan based terrorists.
Other things you felt agitated with were in broader context of discussion, I have not falsely attributed to you anything so relax, some were just counters not attributions, for ex- when you say no "major" attack it should be asked if attacks that doesn't qualify as "major" are they ok?
And there are no cross border "operations" to avenge death of five unless we lost some really valuable people. Soldiers and Paramilitaries are added to list of martyrs and the only revenge they get is killing of 1 or 2 terrorist responsible for it after few months, who would be killed anyhow, if you consider it as measured well and good, I don't.
Anyway the main context was to prevent this, not let it to the stage of revenge in the original reply you quoted. The thousands of martyrs we have is because of these small attacks not "major" ones.
I would be happy if we can reach China's current level of R &D by 2040
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I think we should be there by then. I, personally, the gap between us in practically all sectors is a good 10-20 years.I would be happy if we can reach China's current level of R &D by 2040
You are simplifying things too much. All the Chinese have bought are 24 Su-35 and 3 S-400 systems, which are far below their actual requirement. And these orders are stop gap to what they are currently building and fielding today. They have actually done what I wanted the IAF to do years ago in fact, like upgrading the MKI with Irbis-E and 117S back in 2012.
The Chinese have now started building their Su-35 equivalent called the J-11D (with an AESA radar). And they have a whole host of multiple types of SAMs which are being fielded now. They didn't have the J-11D or the new SAMs at the time they signed up for the Su-35 and S-400. As for SAMs, google HQ-16C, HQ-18, HQ-19, HQ-22, HQ-26 and HQ-29.
They are likely using the Su-35 and S-400 as a template for their own programs, since the successors are based off of older Russian systems, like the Flanker, Buk and S-300. But the Chinese are now finishing development on their S-500 equivalent systems.
Anyway, you misinterpreted my post. When I gave the China example, I wasn't referring to military technology alone. China has been under military sanctions for decades. When it comes to Russian supplies to China, they do not transfer technology like they do to India, the Russians only give them fully finished products. What I am referring to is tech denial throughout the entire spectrum of new technologies, both military and civilian. Post 2030, you can expect a proper technology denial system introduced to keep India out too, like what the US is doing with their trade war and the new tech ban imposed on Chinese companies.
We have the potential to achieve anything. But we lack the attitude big time and unless our top leadership takes the initiative we will lag forever. Just take the example of Train 18. It just took 18 months and 100 crores to develop that train. Why didn't we do it earlier?
Same is true for ATAGS. In spite of being fully aware of importance of long range artillery, our Army and MoD slept happily for 30 years to import guns without trying to develop anything. Somehow better sense prevailed and they started the development of ATAGS and Dhanush. The way things are proceeding, in another 10-15 years we might become self sufficient regarding artilleries. We need to adapt the same approach in every damn defense segment.
If our govt and private sector are willing to put money into cutting edge R&D, Indian engineers can overtake China over next 20 years. But having experienced the rotten management system of Indian public sector R&D, I am not very hopeful.
Feel free to pick any terrorist attack. I claim it's a lone wolf attack. If you don't agree, then provide enough credible evidence to prove otherwise.
For example, the audio recording of Pak CoA instructing to carry out the attack will be sufficient as proof.
Again why do you assume I am agitated
?? My peace of mind is worth a lot and I am not willing to get agitated/ loose my peace of mind over some posts !!I prefer the discussion to be objective and reply must be on a point by point basis. When you include points from a different/broader context, the direction of discussion go haywire.
As I have already mentioned, I am not going to put any condition on the date/scale/area of retaliation for every terrorist attack. I would leave it the security forces.
It's absolutely fine if you are not happy with the response. You have every right to feel anyway you want and express your feelings over here.
PS: I do understand your point of view even though I don't agree with it. During Kargil war my whole engineering batch was more than willing to march to the border to kill some Pakistanis
.We need to accelerate our R&D capability extensively but should stay in the shadows. We often have the bad habit of showing off and making bombastic claims which ends up earning the attention of foreign powers.
china-US fight is certainly a good indication of what is in store for us. We should let china be in focus and take most of the damage. In fact this fight might well be catalyst for breaking the existing global order. We should sit tight until we are able to manufacture most of the goods in the country. In fact even china was doing the same and all of a sudden they decided to commit hara-kiri under the current regime.
No no, i had no intention of insulting you or @vstol Jockey. I recollected that there was some kind of disagreement between both of you on this matter and hence referred to it. When @cstol Jockey replied to my post, i replied 'Right, i get it.', which meant that i understood that fundamentally both of you are on the same page.
I am uncomfortable with this babaji's twitter posts, and do not understand why so many people like them.
No no, i had no intention of insulting you or @vstol Jockey. I recollected that there was some kind of disagreement between both of you on this matter and hence referred to it. When @cstol Jockey replied to my post, i replied 'Right, i get it.', which meant that i understood that fundamentally both of you were on the same page.
I am uncomfortable with this babaji's twitter posts, and do not understand why so many people like them.
What is the strategic reason for such a response? Do i interpret the IA action as a confirmation that FAF hit some of our ammunition depots? What benefit would this action give especially since @Falcon said, casualties are light inspite of heavy firing? Perception wise (not in diplomatic circles) Pak had the upper hand due to the quick release of Abhinandan.
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