Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[batman]

LCA Mk2 and Rafale are fine for now, but if the IAF is looking at 6th gen options, it means things are going to look quite a bit different at the time it's expected to become operational.

The IAF decides requirements. And only they know what the Chinese are up to.



Yeah, this strings attached story is just propaganda used by the anti-American lobby. Funny how we have no problems with Apache, Stryker, P-8I, and Romeo.

This story spread ever since the US sold us Trenton and put up a clause saying we can't use it to invade other countries. They just don't want systems with a history in their own navy to be used in an offensive capacity against another country. But this doesn't apply to new builds.

The so-called strings-attached would be no more different than it is for any other NATO or non-NATO ally. It's just a standard agreement not to use it beyond its intended purpose that we will both agree to before signing. PAF broke the rules last year and in 2019 with no repercussions, so it's not something they tend to follow to the letter.

Not sure how true this is considering american history

Anyway, my opinion is to just import 2 squadrons instead of going for an expensive JV and dumping excess money on an indigenous program, not imports.

42 F-47s would cost about $400-500M each in procurement costs, taking us to $16-20B. A SCAF JV could see us lose $25B on R&D alone, money better spent on ADA, and another $50B procuring 120 jets. It does not make sense at this point when we will have AMCA and a simpler import option generating better capability much faster. And I don't trust the Brits to deliver a good product, there's too much risk in GCAP.

Difference is that we gain technical know how and know why and production practice versus simply importing from unreliable partners like America.

American jets definitely do not make sense in large numbers without ToT, but that's a different issue entirely. This applies to pretty much any import today. And this is only because the IAF thinks an import is necessary here due to ADA's failure to meet the new schedule.

Plus I foresee the Europeans getting closer to China post the Great Reset. Just look up China's upcoming mega-embassy in London.

 

[randomradio]

It's doesn't have to be the same degree, the difference is that Su57 is flying on ukraine with upgrade's being taken place based on the most modern war scenario while F47 is nothing more than a cardboard piece. Apart from probably slightly better stealth, it doesn't offer much more than the Su57 can already do or can do in the future. Also, it doesn't need a new wing and tail, it's wing is already shaped incredibly flat and stealthy and small vertical stabalizer's is good enough for 6th gen platforms, check the GCAP for reference.

It's survivability is nowhere near.

That doesn't even make sense on how canard's will improve stealth.

Why would it improve stealth?

 

[Speedster1]

Developing Rafale's avionics has taken tens of billions over multiple decades. It's not something that can be bought with money.

This certainly wouldn't be the 1st time for the UAE. In the 90s, they financed the dev of the B60 Desert Falcon variant of the Viper and hold IPR for some of the onboard electronics.

It was B60 that spawned the dev of later models like B70/72 for which the UAE probably receives royalties from LM to this day.

 

[randomradio]

Not sure how true this is considering american history

Sanctions are the danger, not the strings.

Difference is that we gain technical know how and know why and production practice versus simply importing from unreliable partners like America.

We are not gonna get either know-how or know-why. Not even Rafale ToT comes with that. This is only for AMCA's engine.

For 6th gen, it's just foreground IP. You make the radar, it's yours. We make the radar, it's ours. Everything that led to the design and production of the radar belongs to the creator, not the partner, that's background IP. The only thing shared is the foreground IP based on financial share, there's no ToT. So we either replace the core avionics or import the core avionics. But doing the former is time consuming and defeats the purpose of the JV.

Manufacturing with ToT is essentially copying a blueprint, you only learn how to manufacture something. There's no R&D understanding involved. The idea behind production ToT is purely to support the IAF. It has zero influence in R&D programs.

Even with Su-57 production, we will only see a normal localization with zero impact on R&D, the same as MKI. Even the FGFA JV was just a more expensive indigenization program, where we pay and the Russians develop.

So whether it's SCAF, GCAP, or F-47, a large order only means local production for sustainability. But if we go for an F-47I with Israel, we will be able to upgrade an Indian/Israeli EW suite on our own while being able to add our own weapons wherever radar integration is not necessary. And an American jet will be globally sustainable. The F-35I is more sustainable than the F-35A too, it's independent from LM's logistics ecosystem. The Americans have offered the Saudis the same deal.

SCAF JV will take until 2045 to deliver full capability, Trappier hinted at 2050. GCAP will take until 2040. F-47 will take until 2035. It's obvious which one will save time.

 

[Optimist]

The Americans offered the Israeli version of the F-35 to India.

No, the US can't offer any Israeli items, There was talk of offering the F-35, you would have to get rid of the S-400, same as turkey, Probably other stuff as well
You would have had to negotiate with Israel, to add any of their individual items, The same as individual items from other nations

You still need medicating, the voices in your head must be bothersome

 

[randomradio]

This certainly wouldn't be the 1st time for the UAE. In the 90s, they financed the dev of the B60 Desert Falcon variant of the Viper and hold IPR for some of the onboard electronics.

It was B60 that spawned the dev of later models like B70/72 for which the UAE probably receives royalties from LM to this day.

They don't have access to core technologies that they expected from F5.

 

[batman]

It's survivability is nowhere near.

True, a cardboard has much higher survivability than an actual 5th gen platform.

Why would it improve stealth?

I'm asking cause you said this, "I've always held the view that a jet with canards has lower RCS relative to its own design without canards rather than it being a standard required for all jets."

 

[batman]

Sanctions are the danger, not the strings.

Everything is interconnected

We are not gonna get either know-how or know-why. Not even Rafale ToT comes with that. This is only for AMCA's engine.

You are talking as if there was a clause saying otherwise, everyone knows the tot for rafale is just 50% or at best 60%, we aint getting the tech for it's engine or avionics, everything else we have already mostly caught up with them and didn't require much anyway. Also, the clause can be clearly defined for the JV aircraft just like the one with them for the engine.

For 6th gen, it's just foreground IP. You make the radar, it's yours. We make the radar, it's ours. Everything that led to the design and production of the radar belongs to the creator, not the partner, that's background IP. The only thing shared is the foreground IP based on financial share, there's no ToT. So we either replace the core avionics or import the core avionics. But doing the former is time consuming and defeats the purpose of the JV.

We still get all the advancements made during the JV for new tech and considering our technological base, this is a good deal and within expectations.

Manufacturing with ToT is essentially copying a blueprint, you only learn how to manufacture something. There's no R&D understanding involved. The idea behind production ToT is purely to support the IAF. It has zero influence in R&D programs.

Nobody is talking about Manufacturing ToT, we are talking about joint development.

Even with Su-57 production, we will only see a normal localization with zero impact on R&D, the same as MKI. Even the FGFA JV was just a more expensive indigenization program, where we pay and the Russians develop.

Precise manufacturing, complex composites, radar absorbent structures, tight tolerance, digital production systems, supply chain development, system integration etc are some of the benefits of it and we arent't asking Su57 Local Production to develop our R&D in the first place, so not sure why you even mentioned it.

So whether it's SCAF, GCAP, or F-47, a large order only means local production for sustainability. But if we go for an F-47I with Israel, we will be able to upgrade an Indian/Israeli EW suite on our own while being able to add our own weapons wherever radar integration is not necessary. And an American jet will be globally sustainable. The F-35I is more sustainable than the F-35A too, it's independent from LM's logistics ecosystem. The Americans have offered the Saudis the same deal.

The Su57 is a much better deal for us and it's actually operational right now and we will be dependant on america for the F47 and it's subsystems which isnt a good place to be for our strategic autonomy.

SCAF JV will take until 2045 to deliver full capability, Trappier hinted at 2050. GCAP will take until 2040. F-47 will take until 2035. It's obvious which one will save time.

the timelines are relatively similar but I consider us getting more for the buck with GCAP than F47.

 

[randomradio]

True, a cardboard has much higher survivability than an actual 5th gen platform.

Su-57 is not competing here. The choices are between SCAF, GCAP, and F-47, actual 6th gen jets.

I'm asking cause you said this, "I've always held the view that a jet with canards has lower RCS relative to its own design without canards rather than it being a standard required for all jets."

I'm claiming the opposite. J-20 without canards will be more stealthy than J-20 with canards. But J-20 with canards is still more stealthy than an F-15. So the canards themselves have little to do with whether a jet is stealthy or not.

So an F-47 without canards could be more stealthy, but they are fine with whatever stealth they have managed to get with canards.

 

[randomradio]

No, the US can't offer any Israeli items, There was talk of offering the F-35, you would have to get rid of the S-400, same as turkey, Probably other stuff as well
You would have had to negotiate with Israel, to add any of their individual items, The same as individual items from other nations

You still need medicating, the voices in your head must be bothersome

Trump offered the Saudis the F-35I too.

The Israelis offered India all their stuff.

No, the S-400s aren't a problem. It's just an Erdogan-Israel problem.

 

[randomradio]

You are talking as if there was a clause saying otherwise, everyone knows the tot for rafale is just 50% or at best 60%, we aint getting the tech for it's engine or avionics, everything else we have already mostly caught up with them and didn't require much anyway. Also, the clause can be clearly defined for the JV aircraft just like the one with them for the engine.

We get airframe and engine manufacturing ToT, we won't get avionics. But we won't get know-how and know-why, those are completely different.

We still get all the advancements made during the JV for new tech and considering our technological base, this is a good deal and within expectations.

No, we get nothing except manfacturing ToT of exportable tech.

Like that Brahmos engine that was supposed to come to India but Russia decided to keep for themselves. Everything else has been Indianized.

Nobody is talking about Manufacturing ToT, we are talking about joint development.

JV is manufacturing ToT, but with some IP ownership. We get a share in the profits, that's the only thing extra.

We will have to replace everything else on our own using our own tech if we want full control over the jet. Like, we will need to replace the Brahmos motor with our own to make it 100% Indian.

DRDO Makes A Step Forward In Making India’s Very Own 'BrahMos-like' Supersonic Cruise Missile, Tests Its Liquid Ramjet Fuel

India took a step towards developing another completely Made-in-India ‘BrahMos’-like supersonic missile. Two days ago (on 8 May), the Defence Material

swarajyamag.com

Until now, the fuel for the BrahMos missile was imported from Russia.

Under this agreement, India imports the ramjet engines of the BrahMos missile, and its fuel, seeker, and various other components from Russia.

It is only in the last 5-10 years that India has started indigenising various components of the BrahMos and tested them successfully like its active radar homing seeker and its booster.

GCAP, everything will be made by the partners. If we negotiate 5% of the JV, then we get 5% of the workshare and 5% of IPR ownership. But we can negotiate 100% ToT for the airframe and 80% for the engine in the process and eventually indigenize the remaining 20% of the engine and almost 100% of the core avionics to make it fully indigenous. The Italian radar will remain Italian, we won't get access to it. Profits will be shared as per the JV.

Precise manufacturing, complex composites, radar absorbent structures, tight tolerance, digital production systems, supply chain development, system integration etc are some of the benefits of it and we arent't asking Su57 Local Production to develop our R&D in the first place, so not sure why you even mentioned it.

All that won't help ADA's next jet. It will only create manpower experience. In case Tata makes GCAP and L&T makes ADA's next jet, how will Tata's experience help L&T? L&T will have to poach workers from Tata. This is just a stupid plan. None of what you said will help DRDO is what I'm saying.

We already have many aerospace programs for the companies involved.

The Su57 is a much better deal for us and it's actually operational right now and we will be dependant on america for the F47 and it's subsystems which isnt a good place to be for our strategic autonomy.

There won't be any difference in dependency. Neither are sanction-proof.

Anyway, Su-57 isn't competing with 6th gen. Su-57 will be selected only if AMCA is headed towards failure.

First, we will clear Rafale production and AMCA R&D. This will happen by the end of the year or early next year. By then we will know the status of LCA Mk2. A year later, AMCA and perhaps even FUFA. By then Su-57 would have matured.

At that point, we will see if AMCA's gonna fail or not, since it has to enter initial production by then. If AMCA is facing delays or failure, then the IAF will think about Su-57.

6th gen is a parallel process independent from Su-57 and AMCA.

the timelines are relatively similar but I consider us getting more for the buck with GCAP than F47.

GCAP will come at European costs without matching the capability of the F-47. The choice is between local production and higher capability.

 

[batman]

Su-57 is not competing here. The choices are between SCAF, GCAP, and F-47, actual 6th gen jets.

So what can these jets do except gimmicks which the Su57 already can't or can't be upgraded to do? and remember, these jets will have their share of design compromises.

I'm claiming the opposite. J-20 without canards will be more stealthy than J-20 with canards. But J-20 with canards is still more stealthy than an F-15. So the canards themselves have little to do with whether a jet is stealthy or not.

ah ok, that's fair.

So an F-47 without canards could be more stealthy, but they are fine with whatever stealth they have managed to get with canards.

I'm just waiting for the american cope on their reddit, forums and youtube channels who shat on the J20 for having canards just to do the same on their new platform.

 

[randomradio]

So what can these jets do except gimmicks which the Su57 already can't or can't be upgraded to do? and remember, these jets will have their share of design compromises.

Survivability will be a generation ahead of the F-22.

Su-57, AMCA etc are designed for stealth in the X to Ku band. F-47, GCAP etc are from VHF to terahertz bands. Meaning, they are designed to defeat photonic radars.

I'm just waiting for the american cope on their reddit, forums and youtube channels who shat on the J20 for having canards just to do the same on their new platform.

It was never an argument for me.

The only weakness of canards is it's easier for missile seekers to lock on to when the canards deflect. That's about it.

 

[PhotonVish]

AMCA will not come before 2035, and thats assume that not hiccups occured which is extremely optimistic for a complex project, same for 120kn AMCA engine, i dont thrust france either.

So there is a good possibility that any 5th gen will be imported, Su-57 has more possibility, as if f35 were to be imported, we were having negotiations now in open

No for GCAP, it is as much 6th gen as AMCA mk2 and F22(with upgaded avionics) are 6th gen and Kf-21 block 1 is 5th gen

Americans makes best jet. Their F-22 raptor was a cold war master piece, so is F-117 , soviat answer Mig 1.44 was not as good as raptor even in papers

USA lagged china is a2a or any other due to war on terror and changed priority to fight unconventional war( that why they halted more F-22 and rather focused on high bypass powerd f-35)

Now as USA is back in game, F-47 will be better than any jet chinease field

A 2-3 squardan of F-47 will be great, and we should also focused on making a true 6th gen fighter (unlike 5.5 gen GCAP).

We will get time cushion to develope 6th gen fighter till 2050(24 years from now)

We should be focused engine, we can make better avionics that whatever europe can field, anyways europe is always behind in avionics even to russia

We should maybe JV either with UK or Russia for 6th gen JV (other than JV with french for AMCA)


Our economy in 2050 will be bigger than UK+Italy+Japan combined, being junior partner(5% share) wont give us tech to develope 7th gen fighter

In conclusion:
-> we should focus on engine tech, everything else we can make, and we will have money
-> buy time so that we can fully commit to indigenous 6th gen without compromising national security

 

[batman]

Survivability will be a generation ahead of the F-22.

Su-57, AMCA etc are designed for stealth in the X to Ku band.

Although the X and Ku band is the primary focus, all these 5th gen jets are designed to have lower signature across multiple parts of their spectrum using all the currently employed measures.

F-47, GCAP etc are from VHF to terahertz bands. Meaning, they are designed to defeat photonic radars.

There is no public proof or evidence about such capability, so I'll repeat my point about these jets mostly can't do what the Su57 can already do or can be upgraded to do.

It was never an argument for me.

The only weakness of canards is it's easier for missile seekers to lock on to when the canards deflect. That's about it.

Canards, especially during it's deflection under various maneuvers will definitely impact the stealth in a negative manner.