Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[batman]

LCA Mk2 and Rafale are fine for now, but if the IAF is looking at 6th gen options, it means things are going to look quite a bit different at the time it's expected to become operational.

The IAF decides requirements. And only they know what the Chinese are up to.



Yeah, this strings attached story is just propaganda used by the anti-American lobby. Funny how we have no problems with Apache, Stryker, P-8I, and Romeo.

This story spread ever since the US sold us Trenton and put up a clause saying we can't use it to invade other countries. They just don't want systems with a history in their own navy to be used in an offensive capacity against another country. But this doesn't apply to new builds.

The so-called strings-attached would be no more different than it is for any other NATO or non-NATO ally. It's just a standard agreement not to use it beyond its intended purpose that we will both agree to before signing. PAF broke the rules last year and in 2019 with no repercussions, so it's not something they tend to follow to the letter.

Not sure how true this is considering american history

Anyway, my opinion is to just import 2 squadrons instead of going for an expensive JV and dumping excess money on an indigenous program, not imports.

42 F-47s would cost about $400-500M each in procurement costs, taking us to $16-20B. A SCAF JV could see us lose $25B on R&D alone, money better spent on ADA, and another $50B procuring 120 jets. It does not make sense at this point when we will have AMCA and a simpler import option generating better capability much faster. And I don't trust the Brits to deliver a good product, there's too much risk in GCAP.

Difference is that we gain technical know how and know why and production practice versus simply importing from unreliable partners like America.

American jets definitely do not make sense in large numbers without ToT, but that's a different issue entirely. This applies to pretty much any import today. And this is only because the IAF thinks an import is necessary here due to ADA's failure to meet the new schedule.

Plus I foresee the Europeans getting closer to China post the Great Reset. Just look up China's upcoming mega-embassy in London.

 

[randomradio]

It's doesn't have to be the same degree, the difference is that Su57 is flying on ukraine with upgrade's being taken place based on the most modern war scenario while F47 is nothing more than a cardboard piece. Apart from probably slightly better stealth, it doesn't offer much more than the Su57 can already do or can do in the future. Also, it doesn't need a new wing and tail, it's wing is already shaped incredibly flat and stealthy and small vertical stabalizer's is good enough for 6th gen platforms, check the GCAP for reference.

It's survivability is nowhere near.

That doesn't even make sense on how canard's will improve stealth.

Why would it improve stealth?

 

[Speedster1]

Developing Rafale's avionics has taken tens of billions over multiple decades. It's not something that can be bought with money.

This certainly wouldn't be the 1st time for the UAE. In the 90s, they financed the dev of the B60 Desert Falcon variant of the Viper and hold IPR for some of the onboard electronics.

It was B60 that spawned the dev of later models like B70/72 for which the UAE probably receives royalties from LM to this day.

 

[randomradio]

Not sure how true this is considering american history

Sanctions are the danger, not the strings.

Difference is that we gain technical know how and know why and production practice versus simply importing from unreliable partners like America.

We are not gonna get either know-how or know-why. Not even Rafale ToT comes with that. This is only for AMCA's engine.

For 6th gen, it's just foreground IP. You make the radar, it's yours. We make the radar, it's ours. Everything that led to the design and production of the radar belongs to the creator, not the partner, that's background IP. The only thing shared is the foreground IP based on financial share, there's no ToT. So we either replace the core avionics or import the core avionics. But doing the former is time consuming and defeats the purpose of the JV.

Manufacturing with ToT is essentially copying a blueprint, you only learn how to manufacture something. There's no R&D understanding involved. The idea behind production ToT is purely to support the IAF. It has zero influence in R&D programs.

Even with Su-57 production, we will only see a normal localization with zero impact on R&D, the same as MKI. Even the FGFA JV was just a more expensive indigenization program, where we pay and the Russians develop.

So whether it's SCAF, GCAP, or F-47, a large order only means local production for sustainability. But if we go for an F-47I with Israel, we will be able to upgrade an Indian/Israeli EW suite on our own while being able to add our own weapons wherever radar integration is not necessary. And an American jet will be globally sustainable. The F-35I is more sustainable than the F-35A too, it's independent from LM's logistics ecosystem. The Americans have offered the Saudis the same deal.

SCAF JV will take until 2045 to deliver full capability, Trappier hinted at 2050. GCAP will take until 2040. F-47 will take until 2035. It's obvious which one will save time.

 

[Optimist]

The Americans offered the Israeli version of the F-35 to India.

No, the US can't offer any Israeli items, There was talk of offering the F-35, you would have to get rid of the S-400, same as turkey, Probably other stuff as well
You would have had to negotiate with Israel, to add any of their individual items, The same as individual items from other nations

You still need medicating, the voices in your head must be bothersome

 

[randomradio]

This certainly wouldn't be the 1st time for the UAE. In the 90s, they financed the dev of the B60 Desert Falcon variant of the Viper and hold IPR for some of the onboard electronics.

It was B60 that spawned the dev of later models like B70/72 for which the UAE probably receives royalties from LM to this day.

They don't have access to core technologies that they expected from F5.