Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[Parthu]

The AMCA egg with 100% ToT and IPR will become an Indian egg, so it's not going to be a factor.

Eventually, sure. But over the course of a 10-15 year development program, the JV partner can create roadblocks at any step.

M2000I comes with 2 MCs, MDPU integrates core avionics and weapons systems and HAL MC integrates plug and play systems and acts as a translation device between French and Indian systems. The Rafale could become the same. The only thing extra on F-35I is it comes with some airframe modifications for Israeli antennas for comm and EW separate from the F-35's core avionics and comm, we don't need that on Rafale and M2000. Neither the Indians nor Israelis get access to core avionics.

It depends on the scale of the JV too. Rules will be different for equal partnership versus a junior partner. I'm thinking it will be the latter for the IAF.

Whether it's a JV or not, we will need 100% ToT for the airframe and engine, at least when combined with our own tech for denied tech. But if we replace the core avionics with Indian as well, then the business end of the JV will die due to lack of European workshare in the Indian version. That's why I think we will aim for 100% airframe and engine tech while using Europe's core avionics with some of our stuff jacked in from the side. This would also be the fastest.

SCAF's out and GCAP's workshare has already been decided. So a 5% junior partner or just an import partner is the best we can hope for if we join GCAP.

ADA screwed the pooch here. They are 5-10 years behind where they should have been right now.

Assuming we are serious about FUFA as a prospective roadmap, taking the 'quickest & cheapest' method to get a local airframe/engine production/assembly line for FCAS should be a-okay.

 

[randomradio]

Eventually, sure. But over the course of a 10-15 year development program, the JV partner can create roadblocks at any step.

That will impact them too.

Assuming we are serious about FUFA as a prospective roadmap, taking the 'quickest & cheapest' method to get a local airframe/engine production/assembly line for FCAS should be a-okay.

With SCAF gone and GCAP being a risky program, I'd rather see us join up with Israel and get into an F-47I program. We only need 2 squadrons. Even the USAF is fine with 5 combat squadrons, that tells us how capable the aircraft will be. We can get it inducted between 2035 and 2040. And we need to go all-in on ADA's next gen, which can begin flying by the early-to-mid 2040s.

F-47 is meant to operate in isolation, so we will be able to operate it without support too. Stings attached, sure, but only impacts 2 squadrons and the Chinese will take over a decade more to catch up, which is more time for us.

 

[Rajput Lion]

That will impact them too.



With SCAF gone and GCAP being a risky program, I'd rather see us join up with Israel and get into an F-47I program. We only need 2 squadrons. Even the USAF is fine with 5 combat squadrons, that tells us how capable the aircraft will be. We can get it inducted between 2035 and 2040. And we need to go all-in on ADA's next gen, which can begin flying by the early-to-mid 2040s.

F-47 is meant to operate in isolation, so we will be able to operate it without support too. Stings attached, sure, but only impacts 2 squadrons and the Chinese will take over a decade more to catch up, which is more time for us.

No American fighter jets for us. Mark it. And FYI, Su-57D/60MKI file has progressed much far.

 

[Optimist]

With SCAF gone and GCAP being a risky program, I'd rather see us join up with Israel and get into an F-47I program.

So you are buying US aircraft from Israel? I think it's time you were medicated

 

[Sathya]

USA didn't give us throwaway F16 without strings ..
F35 don't know how many clauses were there to get.. i presume direct war with China will only push us or them to buy or sell F35.

F47 I doubt we ll get anytime.

Wrt Su 57 , let's sign the Rafale first....

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

France is a terrible partner when it comes to shared military programes. Its so amusing to watch armchair experts here, wanting India to hitch its wagon with said terrible partner hoping for miraculous outcomes that even other europeans couldnt achieve. Just pathetic!!!

 

[Speedster1]

The UAE was forced to pulled out from a deal to fund Rafale F5 because the French didn't budge on ToT. And the Emirates were the guys who'd paid DA a premium back in the day to build them a custom M2000-9 variant with advanced EW and weapons integration.

No way we'd have gotten any worthwhile tech from SCAF even if the prog had not been abandoned. We've barely managed to get access to ICDs on an eventual order of 200+ Rafale

 

[YoungWolf]

https://www.euronews.com/business/2026/06/10/airbus-led-consortium-to-launch-german-backed-fighter-jet-project-after-fcas-collapse

Germany forms Team Gen6 alliance, with Airbus leading a consortium of 6 German companies. Additionally, MBDA will serve as weapons provider.

 

[randomradio]

No American fighter jets for us. Mark it. And FYI, Su-57D/60MKI file has progressed much far.

Perhaps. But the American jet could end up being the only option. GCAP has until June end for funding to go through or Japan will pull back.

AMCA has to fail spectacularly for us to buy another 5th gen jet.

 

[randomradio]

So you are buying US aircraft from Israel? I think it's time you were medicated

The Americans offered the Israeli version of the F-35 to India.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Perhaps. But the American jet could end up being the only option. GCAP has until June end for funding to go through or Japan will pull back.

Buying any US high-end jet is against our strategic & tactical interests along with autonomy.

AMCA has to fail spectacularly for us to buy another 5th gen jet.

This was discussed between Def Min/Def Sec & IAF chief few days ago in a high-end meeting regarding our 5th gen roadmap. ACM made it clear that acquiring Su-57D/60MKI will be complimentary to AMCA and won't curtail its orders. Rest assured that over 140 Su-57/D/60MKI are coming before 2038.

 

[randomradio]

The UAE was forced to pulled out from a deal to fund Rafale F5 because the French didn't budge on ToT. And the Emirates were the guys who'd paid DA a premium back in the day to build them a custom M2000-9 variant with advanced EW and weapons integration.

No way we'd have gotten any worthwhile tech from SCAF even if the prog had not been abandoned. We've barely managed to get access to ICDs on an eventual order of 200+ Rafale

They were dreaming if they thought they were gonna get ToT on electronics for such a small amount.

Whether it's SCAF or GCAP, we won't get avionics ToT. With F-47 we won't get anything except usage and MRO rights.

 

[randomradio]

USA didn't give us throwaway F16 without strings ..
F35 don't know how many clauses were there to get.. i presume direct war with China will only push us or them to buy or sell F35.

F47 I doubt we ll get anytime.

Wrt Su 57 , let's sign the Rafale first....

Strings attached is a bit overblown. They just don't want us invading a third country with it. Otherwise the Americans won't care what we do with it with respect to China and Pakistan.

We operate many American technologies with "strings attached." But when you read the fineprint, it's mostly about IPR protection.

 

[batman]

I'd rather see us join up with Israel and get into an F-47I program. We only need 2 squadrons.

Crazy how no matter how much american warmachine propaganda tried to downplay the Su57, it keeps proving each and every hater wrong.

The F47 is america's way of trying to catch up with the Russians Su57, it's targeted to be highly maneuverable, have long range, good internal weapons payload, stealthy, sensor. flat body, tail-less, command drones, AI assistance, except for being tail-less(in comparison to the bill-board sized F22 tails, Su57's tail is pretty small), Su57 can already do all these things, it's also funny how they are likely gonna remove the tails just to add canards and now suddenly american's are gonna justify the canards for it being good for stealth while complaining about the J20.

 

[batman]

Strings attached is a bit overblown. They just don't want us invading a third country with it. Otherwise the Americans won't care what we do with it with respect to China and Pakistan.

We operate many American technologies with "strings attached." But when you read the fineprint, it's mostly about IPR protection.

So let me get this straight, you want us to acquire an expensive 6th gen platform designed to penetrate enemy airspace and face advanced hostile air defence system's and use it as an interceptor? Sorry to burst your bubble but we already have designed the Tejas Mk2 for such roles and can acquire and operate it in a much more economic manner.

edit: I just reread your comment and noticed that you said America wont have a problem with us using it against Pakistan or China in any manner, how sure are you about said claim considering the geopolitics at play?

France is a terrible partner when it comes to shared military programes. Its so amusing to watch armchair experts here, wanting India to hitch its wagon with said terrible partner hoping for miraculous outcomes that even other europeans couldnt achieve. Just pathetic!!!

True, I don't have any expectations with France regarding a joint fighter program, the GCAP, a new program with Russia or a purely indigenous route is the way to go.

 

[Speedster1]

They were dreaming if they thought they were gonna get ToT on electronics for such a small amount.

Whether it's SCAF or GCAP, we won't get avionics ToT. With F-47 we won't get anything except usage and MRO rights.

Of the $5b dev cost projected for F5, the UAE had offered to pay a substantial $3.5bn. Not bad by any means.

Besides they are paying $19bn for 80 birds, working out to $237m a unit - without local MRO or FAL. (For context, the base price is ~$120m).

I'm guessing the extra money is going toward CFE electronics and weapons that have not been disclosed.

 

[randomradio]

Crazy how no matter how much american warmachine propaganda tried to downplay the Su57, it keeps proving each and every hater wrong.

The F47 is america's way of trying to catch up with the Russians Su57, it's targeted to be highly maneuverable, have long range, good internal weapons payload, stealthy, sensor. flat body, tail-less, command drones, AI assistance, except for being tail-less(in comparison to the bill-board sized F22 tails, Su57's tail is pretty small), Su57 can already do all these things, it's also funny how they are likely gonna remove the tails just to add canards and now suddenly american's are gonna justify the canards for it being good for stealth while complaining about the J20.

No, the Su-57 cannot do all this to the same degree. It doesn't even use the same network architecture for example.

AI and MUM-T will be implemented on 4.5th gen jets too.

What matters here is not range, payload etc, it's survivability, networking, and sensors. On the Su-57, survivability is just a slight upgrade over 4.5th gen and sensors are 5th gen, not even 5.5th gen yet. Su-57's networking is also 5th gen, not 6th, but that's a product of its time. The Russians can get the networking and sensors solved with successive modernizations, even if it takes a decade more, but will never solve survivability relative to the F-47.

If the Su-57 is to climb up to 6th gen standards, the level of modernization required for survivability currently does not exist outside TDs in a lab. And it cannot be as simple as a Su-27 > M1 > M2 transition either, it would need a completely new wing and tail. I am hoping to see that on AMCA NG, if pursued.

Boeing has tested canard designs for stealth. I've always held the view that a jet with canards has lower RCS relative to its own design without canards rather than it being a standard required for all jets.

 

[randomradio]

So let me get this straight, you want us to acquire an expensive 6th gen platform designed to penetrate enemy airspace and face advanced hostile air defence system's and use it as an interceptor? Sorry to burst your bubble but we already have designed the Tejas Mk2 for such roles and can acquire and operate it in a much more economic manner.

LCA Mk2 and Rafale are fine for now, but if the IAF is looking at 6th gen options, it means things are going to look quite a bit different at the time it's expected to become operational.

The IAF decides requirements. And only they know what the Chinese are up to.

edit: I just reread your comment and noticed that you said America wont have a problem with us using it against Pakistan or China in any manner, how sure are you about said claim considering the geopolitics at play?

Yeah, this strings attached story is just propaganda used by the anti-American lobby. Funny how we have no problems with Apache, Stryker, P-8I, and Romeo.

This story spread ever since the US sold us Trenton and put up a clause saying we can't use it to invade other countries. They just don't want systems with a history in their own navy to be used in an offensive capacity against another country. But this doesn't apply to new builds.

The so-called strings-attached would be no more different than it is for any other NATO or non-NATO ally. It's just a standard agreement not to use it beyond its intended purpose that we will both agree to before signing. PAF broke the rules last year and in 2019 with no repercussions, so it's not something they tend to follow to the letter.

Anyway, my opinion is to just import 2 squadrons instead of going for an expensive JV and dumping excess money on an indigenous program, not imports.

42 F-47s would cost about $400-500M each in procurement costs, taking us to $16-20B. A SCAF JV could see us lose $25B on R&D alone, money better spent on ADA, and another $50B procuring 120 jets. It does not make sense at this point when we will have AMCA and a simpler import option generating better capability much faster. And I don't trust the Brits to deliver a good product, there's too much risk in GCAP.

American jets definitely do not make sense in large numbers without ToT, but that's a different issue entirely. This applies to pretty much any import today. And this is only because the IAF thinks an import is necessary here due to ADA's failure to meet the new schedule.

Plus I foresee the Europeans getting closer to China post the Great Reset. Just look up China's upcoming mega-embassy in London.

 

[randomradio]

Of the $5b dev cost projected for F5, the UAE had offered to pay a substantial $3.5bn. Not bad by any means.

Besides they are paying $19bn for 80 birds, working out to $237m a unit - without local MRO or FAL. (For context, the base price is ~$120m).

I'm guessing the extra money is going toward CFE electronics and weapons that have not been disclosed.

Developing Rafale's avionics has taken tens of billions over multiple decades. It's not something that can be bought with money.

 

[batman]

No, the Su-57 cannot do all this to the same degree. It doesn't even use the same network architecture for example.

AI and MUM-T will be implemented on 4.5th gen jets too.

What matters here is not range, payload etc, it's survivability, networking, and sensors. On the Su-57, survivability is just a slight upgrade over 4.5th gen and sensors are 5th gen, not even 5.5th gen yet. Su-57's networking is also 5th gen, not 6th, but that's a product of its time. The Russians can get the networking and sensors solved with successive modernizations, even if it takes a decade more, but will never solve survivability relative to the F-47.

If the Su-57 is to climb up to 6th gen standards, the level of modernization required for survivability currently does not exist outside TDs in a lab. And it cannot be as simple as a Su-27 > M1 > M2 transition either, it would need a completely new wing and tail. I am hoping to see that on AMCA NG, if pursued.

It's doesn't have to be the same degree, the difference is that Su57 is flying on ukraine with upgrade's being taken place based on the most modern war scenario while F47 is nothing more than a cardboard piece. Apart from probably slightly better stealth, it doesn't offer much more than the Su57 can already do or can do in the future. Also, it doesn't need a new wing and tail, it's wing is already shaped incredibly flat and stealthy and small vertical stabalizer's is good enough for 6th gen platforms, check the GCAP for reference.

Boeing has tested canard designs for stealth. I've always held the view that a jet with canards has lower RCS relative to its own design without canards rather than it being a standard required for all jets.

That doesn't even make sense on how canard's will improve stealth.