ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Rajput Lion]

How are we planning to increase the internal weapons bay capacity for AMCA from 4 to 6 missile?

DRDO is preparing a special version of Astra MK2 with folding fins for IWBs of AMCA. 6 missiles in air-to-air configuration is now almost a lock.

The AMCA missile bay is 4.2 metres long, while length of the Astra Mk1 is around 3.84 metres long so there might be a bit of wiggle room to place 3 Astra Mk1 in a staggered config with foldable fins in one missile bay and another 3 in the other missile bay.

I doubt AMCA would carry Astra MK1. Once MK2 arrives, only our CCAs would carry Astra MK1 as it is more cheaper while our manned fighters would carry the much expensive yet capable Astra MK2. And as I said above, a special version is being prepared with folding fins for AMCA's IWB.

What I am more concerned about is the lack of side weapons bays to accomodate CCMs, because at some point in time the engagement will turn to WVR and you won't have optimum firing solutions for it.

AMCA will have EODAS like MAWS, so it'll track targets 360° of the airframe and then pass of the coordinates to its CCM(mainly evolved ASRAAM), which then will be launched via IWBs even over the shoulder.

 

[TARGET]

Concept is very imaginative, really cool, but aesa radar comes with restriction here. But I will take it as a concept of using all these 4 technologies for target acquisition. Stealth can fool a radar but it is tough for a stealth to fool optics, the cameras and IR cameras with telescopic view especially. If the image is processed with the help of an AI then it will be a potent technology. Onboard Radar can be turned on at 20 nautical miles for a better RCS capture and hit probability.

The idea comes from the success of Iranian missile attacks using passive tracking. Radar seekers are increasingly being jammed by advanced multispectral jammers, even with ECCM in place. However, as we know, passive tracking is much harder to counter. If we have a missile like the 40N6 missile, with a 20.3-inch diameter, the larger size gives us room to integrate such technologies. Building on that, if we can successfully develop an anti-aircraft missile tailored for 5th- and even 6th-generation aircraft, it could be a game changer.


Newly designed AI seeker concept

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Newly designed AI seeker concept

Damn AI again!

DRDO is preparing a special version of Astra MK2 with folding fins for IWBs of AMCA. 6 missiles in air-to-air configuration is now almost a lock.

I doubt AMCA would carry Astra MK1. Once MK2 arrives, only our CCAs would carry Astra MK1 as it is more cheaper while our manned fighters would carry the much expensive yet capable Astra MK2. And as I said above, a special version is being prepared with folding fins for AMCA's IWB.

AMCA will have EODAS like MAWS, so it'll track targets 360° of the airframe and then pass of the coordinates to its CCM(mainly evolved ASRAAM), which then will be launched via IWBs even over the shoulder.

So Kumbhakarans woke up

 

[Rajput Lion]

Damn AI again!






So Kumbhakarans woke up

Calling our scientists that is disrespectful. Our mil-aviation industrial complex isn't very mature yet. But we are on right path and by mid 2030s, results would start to come and positively surprise everyone.

 

[batman]

DRDO is preparing a special version of Astra MK2 with folding fins for IWBs of AMCA. 6 missiles in air-to-air configuration is now almost a lock.

So it's the original Astra MK1 or Mk2 which can only be fitted 4 times in AMCA while the foldable Astra will fit 6 in the IWB?

Thats a good number. As long as the bay is able to carry a flexible combo of missiles inside it instead of just 4 A2A missiles, it's a good configuration.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

How are we planning to increase the internal weapons bay capacity for AMCA from 4 to 6 missile?

The AMCA can only take a small number of shots before needing to disengage or rely on others. They may also need to wait for a higher probability of kill than others with say 6 or 8 missiles in engagement, this configuration may result in shorter persistence in contested airspace in stealth configuration as well.

In such a mission, the IAF wouldn’t treat the HAL AMCA as a high-payload platform but as a stealth sensor–shooter that opens the fight, using its limited internal missiles only for the most critical, high-probability targets.

The less than ideal payload will be compensated by the rest of the formation, where Dassault Rafale fire long-range missiles based on AMCA’s targeting data and Sukhoi Su-30MKI carry large missile loads to provide sustained pressure and coverage, while Sukhoi Su-57, if present, adds additional stealth firepower and engagement depth.

Essentially, instead of increasing AMCA’s internal capacity, the IAF distributes the firepower across multiple aircraft and uses networked targeting so that a small number of precise shots from the front enables a much larger volume of coordinated attacks from the rear, maintaining stealth where it matters while still delivering overall firepower.

Each jet would probably do say...

AMCA (pathfinder + precision first strikes)
Rafale (stand-off strike, SCALP/Meteor mix)
Su-30MKI (heavy payload, escort, additional A2A)
Su-57 (optional stealth strike/suppression alongside AMCA)

The AMCA missile bay is 4.2 metres long, while length of the Astra Mk1 is around 3.84 metres long so there might be a bit of wiggle room to place 3 Astra Mk1 in a staggered config with foldable fins in one missile bay and another 3 in the other missile bay.

What I am more concerned about is the lack of side weapons bays to accomodate CCMs, because at some point in time the engagement will turn to WVR and you won't have optimum firing solutions for it.

- AMCA IWB/fuselage load capacity has been increased to 2.5 tons.
- Looking at specs of all jets so far, the fuselage can take1/3rd to 1/2 of total load (excluding internal fuel).
- We can't assume our weapons to have best Pk & poor enemy tactics & countermeasures.
- When our UCAV R&D is sluggish then it's difficult to rely on them for now. UCAVs can also be shot, then AMCA should be self sufficient to defend.
- I tried to show in series of posts with diagrams, matching pixels with dimensions, AMCA can carry 2x3 modified Astr-2 AAMs with short fins like AIM-120-D comfortably, when F-35 & J-35 would be doing it.
- Astr-3 SFDR take space due to ramjet intake & big fins, but if modified then 2x3 can fit.
- Just like chaff/flare canisters are partitioned, similar safety can be done to IWB for weapon compaction, cooling to manage heat like in F-22 & F-35 & safe weapons release w.r.t. vibration/flutter, to increase capacity to 2x4 AAMs with folding fins.
- The IWB doors may need modification.
- Modular SWB can hold 2x2 LOAL CCMs.
- YF-22 was redesigned in 1987 in 3 months. Today we also have affordable supercomuting, AI/ML tools, robotics, some missing H/w are arranged. It is normal daily job of well paid techies to do work, rework, just like a medical surgeon, but some people panic like hell both for surgery & tech work.

But with AMCA's 0.75m IWB depth, 135 degrees of folding is not required, just 45 degrees up/down would suffice. The launcher would punch out the AAMs straight, so the folded fins would be aerodynamically in line with separation trajectory, would take less time to unfold & start flying the AAM.
Astr AAM dia. is 178mm.
In the 2,200mm wide IWB, 2x4 or even 2x5 AAMs might fit tightly.
If the folding can be done within 180mm width then 5x180=900mm would be needed for 5 AAMs, leaving 200/6= 33mm gap b/w the AAMs & with IWB side walls.
A scaled notional diagram of 3/4/5 AAMs looks like following:

 

[batman]

- AMCA IWB/fuselage load capacity has been increased to 2.5 tons.
- Looking at specs of all jets so far, the fuselage can take1/3rd to 1/2 of total load (excluding internal fuel).
- We can't assume our weapons to have best Pk & poor enemy tactics & countermeasures.
- When our UCAV R&D is sluggish then it's difficult to rely on them for now. UCAVs can also be shot, then AMCA should be self sufficient to defend.
- I tried to show in series of posts with diagrams, matching pixels with dimensions, AMCA can carry 2x3 modified Astr-2 AAMs with short fins like AIM-120-D comfortably, when F-35 & J-35 would be doing it.
- Astr-3 SFDR take space due to ramjet intake & big fins, but if modified then 2x3 can fit.
- Just like chaff/flare canisters are partitioned, similar safety can be done to IWB for weapon compaction, cooling to manage heat like in F-22 & F-35 & safe weapons release w.r.t. vibration/flutter, to increase capacity to 2x4 AAMs with folding fins.
- The IWB doors may need modification.
- Modular SWB can hold 2x2 LOAL CCMs.
- YF-22 was redesigned in 1987 in 3 months. Today we also have affordable supercomuting, AI/ML tools, robotics, some missing H/w are arranged. It is normal daily job of well paid techies to do work, rework, just like a medical surgeon, but some people panic like hell both for surgery & tech work.

is there any talk about widening of IWB for amca offically?

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

is there any talk about widening of IWB for amca offically?

I'm not journalist, blogger, vlogger, so IDK.
But there could be already or some day.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Calling our scientists that is disrespectful. Our mil-aviation industrial complex isn't very mature yet. But we are on right path and by mid 2030s, results would start to come and positively surprise everyone.

NOTE - Mods, feel free to edit the colors, emojis.

> I'm a techie too in 40s & i still have hopes too, if things changing then good but I didn't say "scientists" when System has many types & heirarchy of people, all subjected to time based performance metrics, appraisals, ACCOUNTABILITY & consequences.

- In private sector every under-performing person from fresher to CEO/PHD can be put into probation or fired. No job security, no pension, no gratuity guarantee, no matter how good they are.​

- Govt. or private sector, 5 fingers different , 1000s of techies/scientists, some have done great, some need to do better. No red carpet, no red tape should be there.​

- But some guys have the power to pull the strings/plug.​

- Their timely or delayed decison can result in victory/loss of battle, life, territories. Wars happen suddenly.​

- We started AMCA paper work in 2010, FC-31 flew in 2012, now naval J-35. AMCA with custom weapons should have test-flown by now, ​

- so i referred to whoever responsible for stagnating our R&D, procrastinating rather than proactive, overconfident, overoptimistic with peace, delaying/discouraging progressive thinking, the final decison makers, etc.​

- Only 1 org, private or govt., enjoys totalitarian monopoly hence now we're looking at PPP.​

> I said since long time with diagrams, calculations - new gen weapons for new gen jet, but i was negated by some as per their opinion. Now you saying same mentioning DRDO would come as surprise.
World showcases future possibilities via animations, infographics, i would expect same from ADA, DRDO but after 15 years since 2010 AMCA still showcased with old gen weapons not good for IWB, external pods, etc. This shakes public confidence & gives fear of losing battle & territories.



> In nations with multiple orgs also, their techies/scientists called out each other. For example, i remember from my childhood days in 1990s watching the ATF, JSF documentaries, YF-22 Vs YF-23 both were good, but most people knew by looking at X-32 features that it'll loose but still Boeing guys called out Lockheed during test flights, then X-32 lost & became laughing stock. So techies/scientists can also make billion dollar blunders, whole list of global industrial blunders.

 

[redpanda]

NOTE - Mods, feel free to edit the colors, emojis.

> I'm a techie too in 40s & i still have hopes too, if things changing then good but I didn't say "scientists" when System has many types & heirarchy of people, all subjected to time based performance metrics, appraisals, ACCOUNTABILITY & consequences.

- In private sector every under-performing person from fresher to CEO/PHD can be put into probation or fired. No job security, no pension, no gratuity guarantee, no matter how good they are.​

- Govt. or private sector, 5 fingers different , 1000s of techies/scientists, some have done great, some need to do better. No red carpet, no red tape should be there.​

- But some guys have the power to pull the strings/plug.​

- Their timely or delayed decison can result in victory/loss of battle, life, territories. Wars happen suddenly.​

- We started AMCA paper work in 2010, FC-31 flew in 2012, now naval J-35. AMCA with custom weapons should have test-flown by now, ​

- so i referred to whoever responsible for stagnating our R&D, procrastinating rather than proactive, overconfident, overoptimistic with peace, delaying/discouraging progressive thinking, the final decison makers, etc.​

- Only 1 org, private or govt., enjoys totalitarian monopoly hence now we're looking at PPP.​

> I said since long time with diagrams, calculations - new gen weapons for new gen jet, but i was negated by some as per their opinion. Now you saying same mentioning DRDO would come as surprise.
World showcases future possibilities via animations, infographics, i would expect same from ADA, DRDO but after 15 years since 2010 AMCA still showcased with old gen weapons not good for IWB, external pods, etc. This shakes public confidence & gives fear of losing battle & territories.

View attachment 51254

> In nations with multiple orgs also, their techies/scientists called out each other. For example, i remember from my childhood days in 1990s watching the ATF, JSF documentaries, YF-22 Vs YF-23 both were good, but most people knew by looking at X-32 features that it'll loose but still Boeing guys called out Lockheed during test flights, then X-32 lost & became laughing stock. So techies/scientists can also make billion dollar blunders, whole list of global industrial blunders.

View attachment 51252View attachment 51253

Plz bro write things like a normal human being. No offense you have some points. But, your writing style is kinda annoying.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Plz bro write things like a normal human being. No offense you have some points. But, your writing style is kinda annoying.

That's a nice way of offending. Like i said earlier, that way the world is abnormal with color, fonts, neon signs, boards, banners.
But i've reduced usage of colors, big fonts & emojis, can't make them zero as they're website features.

In that post all lines are of same font size 15.
I try to put as many indents, bullets/points rather than paragraphs.
Only 2 partial lines in blue color,
2.5 lines in yellow color,
only 4 emojis.
I even put a note for mods to edit/remove them at their will.
IDK why some people hate emojis when they're for fun.
This much also if you can't tolerate then sorry i can't help further, ignore & move on please, nothing personal.
Good Night!

 

[randomradio]

is there any talk about widening of IWB for amca offically?

AMCA went through a redesign after the first CDR. So let's see if it includes enlarging the bay.

 

[batman]

AMCA went through a redesign after the first CDR. So let's see if it includes enlarging the bay.

Has that design been shown anywhere yet?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Has that design been shown anywhere yet?

Look at various Aero India footages.

 

[randomradio]

Has that design been shown anywhere yet?

We don't know what the design changes were. At best there's speculation that payload has increased to 2T from 1.5T. That's about it.

 

[batman]

We don't know what the design changes were. At best there's speculation that payload has increased to 2T from 1.5T. That's about it.

Interesting

The inner most wing pylons are stressed for 2tons and can carry 1xmeteor+2xMICA on triple carrier. The mid pylons are stressed for 1.2tons and can carry 2xMICA/Astra on twin carrier. So a total of eight in internal bays and a total of 14 on wing stations including wingtips. The additional fuel will be in combat CFTs. But the internal fuel fraction of 0.4 will ensure that with just one refuelling the aircraft will hit an endurance of above six hours. I will not like to push a single seater beyond six hours in air for pilot fatigue considerations.

Can you please consider telling if AMCA can carry 6 missiles internally? If yes, is a mix of BVRAAM, WVRAAM and bombs possible using only it's internal bay?

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

Interesting


Can you please consider telling if AMCA can carry 6 missiles internally? If yes, is a mix of BVRAAM, WVRAAM and bombs possible using only it's internal bay?

Though it's not a confirm news , but I've heard that the internal weapon bay's payload capacity will be significantly increased from previously proposed 1.5 ton to about 2.5 ton with an increase in size too. I guess 6 BVRAAMs ( ASTRA MK2 & MK3 with folded wings/control surfaces ) are confirmed to be included. If WVRAAMs are included with BVRAAM then it may have a configuration of 4 BVRAAMs + 4 WVRAAMs ( dual in one point). Maybe this is because the proposed engine ( each) thrust is increased from previously 110 kN to 130 kN . This may not be the exact figure , so wait till any official confirmation regarding this.

 

[batman]

Though it's not a confirm news , but I've heard that the internal weapon bay's payload capacity will be significantly increased from previously proposed 1.5 ton to about 2.5 ton with an increase in size too. I guess 6 BVRAAMs ( ASTRA MK2 & MK3 with folded wings/control surfaces ) are confirmed to be included. If WVRAAMs are included with BVRAAM then it may have a configuration of 4 BVRAAMs + 4 WVRAAMs ( dual in one point). Maybe this is because the proposed engine ( each) thrust is increased from previously 110 kN to 130 kN . This may not be the exact figure , so wait till any official confirmation regarding this.

That seems like it would require significant redesign to make it possible, not to mention I'm not sure of it being able to carry the 4+4 configuration you mentioned.

 

[Choice_of _inevitability]

That seems like it would require significant redesign to make it possible, not to mention I'm not sure of it being able to carry the 4+4 configuration you mentioned.

Why are we worried about AMCA internal w bay sizes, considering the kind of missions being discussed here would be undertaken in conjunction with RPSA.

 

[batman]

Why are we worried about AMCA internal w bay sizes, considering the kind of missions being discussed here would be undertaken in conjunction with RPSA.

Cause I'm not sure how capable those things will be when AMCA becomes operational.