ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[HariPrasad]

In theory, yes. But they wouldn't have met our timeline for FGFA.

First, Su-57 needs to finish, then FGFA, then MKIzation, then production. Instead, by pushing Su-57 back, we could negotiate to develop our own industry with Western tech, like AMCA engine JV. Russia will become important later on again, after 2035, but right now we need the West. Russia has no interest in making India technologically sovereign.

The issue with Russia is that they still build jets on old philosophy. More focus on maneuverability and less focus on electronics stealth etc. They are strong in mechanical part but not in others. Had Su 57 been made more stealth and equipped with Rafale like EW and BVR, it would have emerged a like a winner. Russia do not want to work more on their planes and lives them in between which hinder them to exploit full potential of the weapon. We bought Su 30 MKI from Russia and built a batter Su 30 in the form of MKI. Here where Russia lacks.

Tom cooper in his recent interview said that Indian S 400 perform batter than Russian S400 because of batter integration with Other system. It seems that Russia lacks in the area of Military doctrine as well. Indian military planners with Russian weapons and army would have won the war against Ukraine a long ago. Recent attack on Russian air base with drone is testimony of poor Russian war planning.

 

[HariPrasad]

There were news that India stole the Data of J35.

The guy who provided the data was given capital punishment. Leaked was through Pakistan.

 

[Speedster1]

The issue with Russia is that they still build jets on old philosophy. More focus on maneuverability and less focus on electronics stealth etc. They are strong in mechanical part but not in others. Had Su 57 been made more stealth and equipped with Rafale like EW and BVR, it would have emerged a like a winner. Russia do not want to work more on their planes and lives them in between which hinder them to exploit full potential of the weapon. We bought Su 30 MKI from Russia and built a batter Su 30 in the form of MKI. Here where Russia lacks.

Tom cooper in his recent interview said that Indian S 400 perform batter than Russian S400 because of batter integration with Other system. It seems that Russia lacks in the area of Military doctrine as well. Indian military planners with Russian weapons and army would have won the war against Ukraine a long ago. Recent attack on Russian air base with drone is testimony of poor Russian war planning.

To be fair, Su-57 was their first attempt at VLO stealth, if you exclude experimental designs like MiG-1.44 (progenitor of the
J-20?) and S-47 Berkut. They are using the lessons learned to develop the single-engine Su-75 which may end up as an export-only product. As regards avionics and sensor fusion, SU/Russia had always lagged behind the West, with some notable exceptions like HMS+R-73 combo, nose-mounted IRST and MiG-31s Zaslon PESA radar.

With Western tech sanctions, no chance they could catch up in the near future imo. They are already sourcing a lot of components from China which will likely find their way into mil products too.

 

[randomradio]

It was in the interest of Russia as well.

No, they are offering MKI-level ToT, that's not enough.

Today, four and half generation Rafale has more demand than Fifth generation Su 57 whcih is cheaper than rafale.

Maturity is relevant to that choice.

 

[HariPrasad]

To be fair, Su-57 was their first attempt at VLO stealth, if you exclude experimental designs like MiG-1.44 (progenitor of the
J-20?) and S-47 Berkut. They are using the lessons learned to develop the single-engine Su-75 which may end up as an export-only product. As regards avionics and sensor fusion, SU/Russia had always lagged behind the West, with some notable exceptions like HMS+R-73 combo, nose-mounted IRST and MiG-31s Zaslon PESA radar.

With Western tech sanctions, no chance they could catch up in the near future imo. They are already sourcing a lot of components from China which will likely find their way into mil products too.

That is what I said and insisted that had Russian accepted to go for FAGFA, they would have a far better plane in their hand. Even if we go for SU 57, there will be many systems which we may have to put our own or sourced by us. Weapons of our choice may find integration in plane.

 

[Speedster1]

That is what I said and insisted that had Russian accepted to go for FAGFA, they would have a far better plane in their hand. Even if we go for SU 57, there will be many systems which we may have to put our own or sourced by us. Weapons of our choice may find integration in plane.

Yes, agree on your first point. However, this time Western suppliers will have strict end-use restrictions on avionics or components we source for Russian ac. We're already seeing this in the commercial domain. Unlike MKI, we also need to negotiate for joint-IP rights, royalties and veto on third-party sales. We should also be able to source raw materials (titanium) and sub-assemblies (nuts, bolts) from local companies without restrictions.

 

[HariPrasad]

Yes, agree on your first point. However, this time Western suppliers will have strict end-use restrictions on avionics or components we source for Russian ac. We're already seeing this in the commercial domain. Unlike MKI, we also need to negotiate for joint-IP rights, royalties and veto on third-party sales. We should also be able to source raw materials (titanium) and sub-assemblies (nuts, bolts) from local companies without restrictions.

That is an execution part of Project. Ofcourse, if we buy it, we would like it to be configure like MKI. No doubt about it. GAN Radar (Virupaksha) developed for Super Sukhois, Astra Mk III, EW developed with Israel or France, Mission computer and AI developed for AMCA, RAM paints developed for AMCA.

 

[Ashwin]

People who still think the Su-57 viable need to carefully consider how Russia will be able to source electronics and semiconductors for advanced systems like next-generation fighters.

They won't be able to deliver anything next generation without including a Chinese component. I don't think I need to explain more.

 

[Lolwa]

A tender is necessary to make the best deal. Direct GTG is not a workable system when competitors are available. It's only possible for exotic tech, like we did for MKI, Brahmos, and MRSAM.

A tender will take too long for our needs.

 

[South block]

AMCA

 

[liberalredditor]

one of my senior's proffs said that due to design limitations, testing limitations and time constraints, amca would come with 4 missile iwb and no swb, but if it needs more ground attack weapons then ghatak would be linked as a loyal wingman doing the work of bomb truck and ig larger cats warrior for a2a missile truck role as loyal wingman

 

[randomradio]

People who still think the Su-57 viable need to carefully consider how Russia will be able to source electronics and semiconductors for advanced systems like next-generation fighters.

They won't be able to deliver anything next generation without including a Chinese component. I don't think I need to explain more.

We won't buy anything from Russia that requires even Russian components. The avionics will have to be Indian.

With that said, a lot of non-Chinese systems, including Indian tech, use Chinese-supplied materials. This Chinese reliance is important to everyone, but overhyped. The only way China stops such supplies is via a blanket ban on exports. They can't do targeted sanctions.

Russia has a more advanced semiconductor industry than India does as well. Just 'cause some standard dual-use chips come from China doesn't mean anything, the best stuff still comes out of Taiwan, SoKo, and Japan, even the US. The core strategic processing will be either COTS (mission computer) or homemade (DSPs and FPGAs for radar, EW suite etc).

 

[randomradio]

A tender will take too long for our needs.

Using the new process, it will be quick. Only the vendors can create hurdles, like the case with P-75I.

But this is the only way to maintain control over the deal.

We started MRCBF's competitive bidding in 2022 and signed a contract in 2025.

 

[Ashwin]

We won't buy anything from Russia that requires even Russian components. The avionics will have to be Indian.

Thats a new aeroplane, a decade of work to delivery.

Russia has a more advanced semiconductor industry than India does as well.

India has access to the world market. There is a huge difference.

 

[randomradio]

Thats a new aeroplane, a decade of work to delivery.

Possibly. Personally, I don't believe we will be going for the vanilla version, if we do go for a Su-57.

FGFA is 8 years total, and only the MKIzation process is 3 years. So we can still replace the core avionics with Indian systems, like we did on MKI, that will take just 3 years and 3 more years for first delivery, regadless of the variant we choose. So if we choose a twin-seat Su-57, say, a Su-60, then we could sign a deal in 2030 and have all the jets we need, at least 3 squadrons, delivered by 2040.

India has access to the world market. There is a huge difference.

Point being, it's irrelevant. This "China maal" story in Russian jets is just Western propaganda. Russia only uses their own stuff or COTS. They don't import critical parts for anything. And they are as dependent on many Chinese COTS and materials as any other aerospace power. People forget that indigenization is a requirement by law for Russia, so this story has always been ridiculous.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

AMCA width 36'6" / length 57'9" / empty weight 12 tons / Internal fuel 6.5 tons.
F-18E/F width 44'8" / length 60'1" / empty weight 14.5 tons / Internal fuel 6.7 tons.
After seeing skinny 4gen F-18 SH with same 2x F414 engines & enjoying versatility of high loadout including EW pods, i decided to push AMCA's design potential as per its dimensions.

5gen design brings AAMs very close inside IWB in staggered order. The fins of AAMs were clipped.
6gen focuses on more capacity of everything & AMCA is being pitched as 5.5gen, so capacity should be increased IMO.

Bcoz AAMs already don't have 100% PK (Probability of Kill) & DEW-CIWS or DECM (Directed Energy Counter Measure), so the next step is to pack more AAMs in same space.
NOTE- After shooting BVR-AAMs the tactic is not to merge for dogfight like in movies, videogames, but make U-turn & continue to stayout of enemy's AAM's NEZ till all BVR-AAMs are depleted.

The PL-15 might be 1st medium range AAM with folding fin.

View attachment 42434

But with AMCA's 0.75m IWB depth, 135 degrees of folding is not required, just 45 degrees up/down would suffice. The launcher would punch out the AAMs straight, so the folded fins would be aerodynamically in line with separation trajectory, would take less time to unfold & start flying the AAM.
Astr AAM dia. is 178mm.
In the 2,200mm wide IWB, 2x4 or even 2x5 AAMs might fit tightly.
If the folding can be done within 180mm width then 5x180=900mm would be needed for 5 AAMs, leaving 200/6= 33mm gap b/w the AAMs & with IWB side walls.
A scaled notional diagram of 3/4/5 AAMs looks like following:

View attachment 42435

With 10x BVR-AAMs + 4 CCMs = 10x154 + 4x88 = 1,892 Kg, 1.892/(12+6.5+1.892)=9.3% of STOW (earlier 1.1 tons was 5.6%).
Wet T/STOW ratio = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+6.5+1.892) = 0.98 (earlier 1.02)
With 50% fuel used & firing 4 BVR-AAMs, with 2 CCMs & 2 BVR-AAMs left, wet TWR = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+3.25+1.892) = 1.16 (earlier 1.24)

Now comparing this new potential with F-18 looks like following:

View attachment 42436

It looks like may be AMCA airframe volume can be expanded some more.

CAUTION - EVERYONE CAN HAVE THEIR OPINION BUT DO NOT COMPARE WITH GHATAK, CATS WARRIOR, ETC WHICH CAN'T DEFEND/DOGFIGHT ONCE/IF DETECTED.

> Few months back in post #1837 on page 92 i showed that Astr-1 cannot be staggered & only 4x possible in IWB.
> Then a modified Astr-2 with short fin to aid in staggered positions in the IWB which would increase capacity from 4 to 6.
(The original Astr-1 AAM CAD is by artist Akela-Freedom & AMCA CAD by artist Kuntal Biswas)



> After seeing a preliminary low resolution bottom view of modified Astr-2 short folding fin AAM in post #1788 on page 90,
then its front view in post #1886 on page 95 which can potentially increase IWB capacity to 8 AAMs.
Let's look at cleaner, enhanced diagram.



Let's superimpose this on IWB of AMCA

> So far i took pixel length of Astr-1 as reference which led to increased red outline of official dimensions of IWB.
This time i took the IWB CAD length of 530 pixels as reference for 4.2m long IWB.
So the length of 3.84m long Astr-2 AAM i'm taking as 968 pixels. It'll appear little shorter than AMCA CAD's Astr-1 length.
The red outine of official IW dimensions is retained.
Then 2x enlarge the overall pic.

> I'm not depicting SWB bcoz it is difficult to edit with IWB doors obstructing side walls. Moreover, previous depiction was just a notional edit, i've some other future ideas.

> A smaller LOAL IIR-CCM like NG-CCM identical to AIM-132 ASRAAM can also fit in. But i'm not depicting it now, may be in future.



Now let's look at relatively better front view.
AMCA width 11130mm = 1242 pixels
IWB width 2200mm = 245 pixels
IWB depth 750mm = 84 pixels
Astr AAM diameter 178 mm = 20 pixels
Then 3x expanded & better AAM CAD superimposed.



So we see the advantage of short-Fin & folded-fin over current big fin Astr-1.
Those who think that adversary jets will be cola cans & our AAMs will have 100% PK, for them 2x2 AAMs in IWB will suffice.

 

[South block]

As the AMCA takes center stage......it is also imperative to initiate a preliminary study for designing a heavy combat aircraft........likely a sixth-generation fighter..........aimed for the post-2035 timeframe.......Collaborations with foreign partners should be explored, if necessary, to leverage advanced technologies and accelerate development.

 

[marich01]

AMCA bulkhead frame related

 

[South block]

As the AMCA takes center stage......it is also imperative to initiate a preliminary study for designing a heavy combat aircraft........likely a sixth-generation fighter..........aimed for the post-2035 timeframe.......Collaborations with foreign partners should be explored, if necessary, to leverage advanced technologies and accelerate development.

I was right about these news media channels credible sources being forum like these @Rajput Lion

 

[Rajput Lion]

I was right about these news media channels credible sources being forum like these @Rajput Lion

View attachment 44300

Typical desi media, lol.

But the news is legit. Su-30MKI replacement aka AHCA is a lock now. IAF wasn't worried about J-20 but Chinese unveiling J-36 & J-50 simultaneously has ruffled some feathers within. They know that AMCA can't take on these Chinese birds. So AHCA was given a go ahead. That is why we are looking at a VCE engine for AMCA so that it could be uprated for AHCA as well.